Roberts Warns Churches Could Lose Tax-Exempt Status For Opposing Gay Marriage

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If the 1st Amendment can be disregarded with such casualness, then what freedoms and liberties might be next?

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Based on the comments from many here on ATS, and in other places, a lot of people are hoping this affects the churches. Ah, the tolerance.......

Christians should 'learn their place", are "irrelevant", are "as bad as the Taliban", etc, etc, ad nauseum. Some people need to stop talking about tolerance.

Across the street from the grocery store I shop at is a park, on the weekends preachers like to go there and preach their Christian word. The guy today had quite a crowd, he was telling the audience of how God spoke to him and said that if they don't want to marry the gays now what they need to do is run them all out of town, and keep them away from their churches and schools.

It didn't sound to me like a very tolerant group.

originally posted by: ketsuko
I knew someone would say that, but the point is that it wasn't until they passed the amendment. At least twice before, such taxes had been taken to SCOTUS with a mixed history and they were always finite.

Tax exempt status for religion institutions goes back as far as Mesopotamian cultures. You might almost say it's as old as marriage itself.

The right to bear arms, and the right to due process weren't constitutional until added via amendments either.

Tax exempt status should carry restrictions, one of those restrictions being that if you're going to recognize the civil rights of one group you need to recognize them for another group. Like I said in my example, if that school is recognizing non Catholic marriages already then they should lose their status (and be sued into oblivion) for not recognizing a marriage between two men. If they're only recognizing Catholic marriages then it's not an issue.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If the 1st Amendment can be disregarded with such casualness, then what freedoms and liberties might be next?

All of them, is my guess. They are already after the 2'nd. Any day now, the thought police will be arresting people because they might become criminals. Oh, wait....we already had a SWAT team destroy a home to get an attempted shoplifter.

Teh gheys pay taxes some of which go to support the churches. Take someone's money and also deny them their civil rights? Nah, you can't both have your cake and eat it, too

originally posted by: Aazadan
Across the street from the grocery store I shop at is a park, on the weekends preachers like to go there and preach their Christian word. The guy today had quite a crowd, he was telling the audience of how God spoke to him and said that if they don't want to marry the gays now what they need to do is run them all out of town, and keep them away from their churches and schools.

It didn't sound to me like a very tolerant group.

I have heard some Christians speak on the issue, but not a one talked that way. When I hear people saying that they hope Christians disappear, or are fined, or whatever, I don't call that tolerance. Especially from a group that throws the word around like a battle cry.

If people are so against some churches, how about they jst don't go to them? Same for bakeries.

a reply to: Profusion

Guess Roberts failed to read the separation of church and state clause. I really don't believe it needs any interpretation by the SCOTUS or pretty much anyone to understand the words and what they mean in plain English.

Gay marriage can take place at city hall or in any civil proceeding. Churches do not have to comply and it should have nothing to do with taxes.

Do religious jews allow gay marriage? How about muslims? Seems lots of religious entities will lose that status.

The onslaught against tax exempt status is part of the IRS scandal.

Pretty easy to figure out.

The Administration and all Departments are extremely jealous and really are out to get even for the exposures of corruption.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

If people are so against some churches, how about they jst don't go to them? Same for bakeries.

Do churches call the cops if they get robbed? I betcha. Do they pay taxes for that privilege? Do the gay people pay taxes to support the whole infrastructure? Gays simply do not appreciate supporting the same very people who spit them in the face.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Aazadan
Across the street from the grocery store I shop at is a park, on the weekends preachers like to go there and preach their Christian word. The guy today had quite a crowd, he was telling the audience of how God spoke to him and said that if they don't want to marry the gays now what they need to do is run them all out of town, and keep them away from their churches and schools.

It didn't sound to me like a very tolerant group.

I have heard some Christians speak on the issue, but not a one talked that way. When I hear people saying that they hope Christians disappear, or are fined, or whatever, I don't call that tolerance. Especially from a group that throws the word around like a battle cry.

If people are so against some churches, how about they jst don't go to them? Same for bakeries.

They already don't go to those churches. The churches however haven't been content to leave it at that. They lobby politicians to get their religious beliefs codified into law and create voting blocks based upon religious beliefs. No one is talking about forcing churches to marry gays (except the Christians oddly enough).

What this entire thing can be reduced to is that church doctrine is subservient to the state and a lot of Christians simply don't want to accept that right now. Marriage, while being a religious practice is primarily a function of government and the government needs to accept marriages from all. The church doesn't have to recognize or perform every marriage but they can't use their marriage practices to deny others from the legal and financial benefits.

originally posted by: combinatorics

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

If people are so against some churches, how about they jst don't go to them? Same for bakeries.

Do churches call the cops if they get robbed? I betcha. Do they pay taxes for that privilege? Do the gay people pay taxes to support the whole infrastructure? Gays simply do not appreciate supporting the same very people who spit them in the face.

No one spit on anyone. the people who form churches pay taxes, so they paid for the service already. Next?

originally posted by: Aazadan
They already don't go to those churches. The churches however haven't been content to leave it at that. They lobby politicians to get their religious beliefs codified into law and create voting blocks based upon religious beliefs. No one is talking about forcing churches to marry gays (except the Christians oddly enough).

What this entire thing can be reduced to is that church doctrine is subservient to the state and a lot of Christians simply don't want to accept that right now. Marriage, while being a religious practice is primarily a function of government and the government needs to accept marriages from all. The church doesn't have to recognize or perform every marriage but they can't use their marriage practices to deny others from the legal and financial benefits.

Actually, people are talking about it. Even Justice Roberts is talking about it, and he knows more about the law than either you or I. Rather the entire point of this thread. Voting blocks are formed by many groups, homosexuals included.

You just admitted that this is about placing churches under the control of the government, which is against the Constitution. Looks like Roberts is correct.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes


No one spit on anyone. the people who form churches pay taxes, so they paid for the service already. Next?

Denying someone their civil rights is worse than spitting them in the face. I was actually being generous. They didn't pay taxes to serve their untaxed property. All those unpaid taxes cost government $billions. So, churches are actually riding on the shoulders of taxpayers.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Actually, people are talking about it. Even Justice Roberts is talking about it, and he knows more about the law than either you or I. Rather the entire point of this thread. Voting blocks are formed by many groups, homosexuals included.

You just admitted that this is about placing churches under the control of the government, which is against the Constitution. Looks like Roberts is correct.

Roberts went off on a tangent that wasn't even related to the case.

You also didn't understand what I said. Marriage is not the exclusive domain of any religion, it's actually a state institution at this point and it has been ever since it provided legal and financial benefits. The fact that churches also offer something called marriage is a completely different discussion and it isn't being changed. Churches are free to discriminate as much as they want.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
They don't HAVE to conform and marry them.
WE still have FREEDOM to worship who and how we want and this won't change.
even the Supreme ct HAS to obey the law and the current admin with be gone soon.

You have a disturbing amount of faith in paper and ink. The only thing that's protecting religious freedom at all in this country today is the sheer number of religious people.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
You have a disturbing amount of faith in paper and ink. The only thing that's protecting religious freedom at all in this country today is the sheer number of religious people.

The only thing that says you're entitled to due process if accused of a crime is some paper and ink.

I wonder if opposition was expected all along, so this entire thing came to pass so that the government could make even more money to line their pockets with?

a reply to: soekvg

I wonder if opposition was expected all along,

Nah. It was thought that everyone would be perfectly happy with the outcome. Whatever it was.

why is it so hard for people to understand??
all money, tax credits, grants, come with strings attached
and if you don't like what is at the end of the strings, you cut them!
or otherwise, you allow yourself to be controlled by them!

I believe that income is only taxed at the personal level, when you venture into the business, organizations, churches and such, the tax is more geared toward profit, and assets. if the church or charity organization didn't want to be taxed, another way to avoid it would be to turn any profit into charity costs or increase in expense costs- like increasing salaries and wages. I highly doubt that the actual churches will be forced to do anything, I mean there's been a law against discrimination in the workforce for a very long time and I don't see that many women catholic priests running around here! So I doubt if we are gonna see many churches marrying gay couples anytime in the near future.

As far as religious colleges, charity organizations, ect. well, to claim that losing you tax exempt status and other federal gifts kind of tells me that you are probably more into making a profit and increasing your assets than you are about doing any charity work!

And well I love how often the word "persecuted" is thrown around by the christains. and to be blunt, you are more apt to see yourselves in the position of being persecuted by allowing those strings to remain intact than if you cut them! But, I understand, it more important for your organization to gather more buildings, bigger building, with pools and fountains in the recreation center than actually centering in on what you are there to actually do! which by the way you are really screwing that one up lately since you seem to be doing more to leave a bad aftertaste in people's mouths then to convince them that you have anything special to offer anyone!

originally posted by: combinatorics

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

If people are so against some churches, how about they jst don't go to them? Same for bakeries.

Do churches call the cops if they get robbed? I betcha. Do they pay taxes for that privilege? Do the gay people pay taxes to support the whole infrastructure? Gays simply do not appreciate supporting the same very people who spit them in the face.

You know what? I'll bet that church in Charleston does not believe in gay marriage. Black churches are some of the most conservative when it comes to those beliefs.

I'll be they're tax exempt.

So are you saying they shouldn't have had the cops show up when Roof came calling because they don't believe in same-sex marriage and likely preach traditional marriage?

a reply to: BrianFlanders

THAT and about 400 million guns in private hands,which MIGHT have some weight...