US may withhold military technology from EU allies if they lift arms embargo on China.

Agreed ace... I mentioned earlier but nobody seems to have listened.

From the top of my head I can name a few things Isreal has supplied china such as...

Missile guidence technology
Advanced radar's
F-16/Lavi tech
mid-air Refueling technology
AWACS tech

I think the usa has every right to ban some weapons from sale to Europe, who cares? who needs them? China would be happy to be our substitute partner in a trade war...

There is another risk, while American weapons are generally of premium quality, it's always the first generation hardware they sell, they want to keep
the latest classified toys (wich makes perfect sense) to stay ahead and sell these 5 years later when there is yet another upgrade in technology. Now if Europe no longer buys the slightly outdated US tec the US risks Europe makes tec that not only catches up with US teclevel but even goes beyond it, you think we can't pull that off? think again....

I think especially the Germans are perfectly capable of making the most agressive state-of-the-art high-tec , just look at their new attack sub.
If the Germans feel like it they could build a bmw quality jetfighter that makes the f22 pale, you be glad the germans got rather peacefull instead after ww2 and rather spend money on healthcare

Also the france would be happy to fill in the gap on the weapons european market, allthough they don't have the same reputation of reliabillity as the germans

American companies would shoot in own foot and miss out on some sweet deals, the Brits WOULD be hurt, that is to say, the posh Anglo-Ameriican intertwined cross-ocean-sharesholders, the Mark Thatchers and the like.

Also the us is prisoner of its own millitary industry, they NEED to sell weapons and install new democracies with conflicts everywhere , because they at least get some return for the huge millitary expenses. They wouldn't want to stop selling weapons to europe, it's too lucrative for some corporations that lobby heavily in Washington?


Too sum all things up in short: when us stops selling weapons to europe they lose:
- money
- influence on proliferation of weapon technology
- political influence

Make our day....



[edit on 25-12-2004 by Countermeasures]

Originally posted by ChrisRT

Accidents happen, with our troops and with their troops.
You do NOT know me so do NOT make assumptions on what I respect and don�t respect.

Nethier do you know me! So dont go throwing around personal insults!

Sounded like jib to me, had I know you where talking about WW2 I would have agreed.

Why you think i am tlking about now?
Ofcourse germany cant take on the USA TODAY! Are you mad! What thier siz sub fleet going to outmanovouer the US navy and kill every carrier, which if they did they then i say bow down to them!

I maintain my stance, where are the bodies?

So its ok to fire nukes at people as long as thier is no evidence huh?
Ok to snipe people if they dont find the bodies?

Our military is poorly trained? You shouldn�t speak of that which you do not know.

Lets see, i passed the USMC fitness test when i was 14 , come on!
Your train for 12 weeks! thats about half the length a british squaddie trains for!

Originally posted by namehere
oh so europe selling weapons to an enemy who likes to arm many of our other enemies isnt hurting us either? in the past such a thing would be considered an act of war, i dont see where you should complain, worst you'll suffer is lost money but we'll suffer dead americans from whatever enemy china sells weapons to, you dont seem to care what YOU are doing, i think we are just in this and your complaints are selfish, hell its OUR technology and we can do whatever we feel with it, if we feel it will threaten us to sell it to people who will sell it to our enemies then thats our right to stop selling it.

Uh exscuse me?
It will be my countries service men as well as yours dieing, if you didnt notice!

really lives vs money, you really think we should risk it just to not hurt you economically?

You would jurt us more than economicaly!
You would give the next enemy most likely china the edge over us therefore more chance of killing our people!

Originally posted by slink

Well the United States imports $11 for every $100 of their GDP. That won't result in a HUGE price change. I'm not sure what the last sentance means.

Whats more exspensive?
Paying a worker in the US or a worker in some far off lands.

What's your point? This has nothing to do with what I said about the United States being a hegemon.

Was i talking to you at that point?
No!

This is not about being equal. The United States views China as a possible threat. I wouldn't want my "allies" selling weapons to my enemy either. It would be like having your best friend sell a gun to the guy down the street who glares at you when you walk by. Next thing you know, that same gun is the one responsible for your death.

Your "allies" as you put it surely have proved thier loyalty.
Covering up deaths.
Going into war with you on many attempts.
Saveing your agents.
Giveing information, aka where you dont give us back!


[edit on 25-12-2004 by devilwasp]

I'm curious, why is China the enemy exactly? Why does everyone think we've going to have some cataclysmic war with them in the future? Why do we have to?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Whats more exspensive?
Paying a worker in the US or a worker in some far off lands.

Again, what does that have to do with Europe? Most cheap labour is found in Mexico or in Asia.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Was i talking to you at that point?
No!

Alright, so why did you quote me?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Your "allies" as you put it surely have proved thier loyalty.
Covering up deaths.
Going into war with you on many attempts.
Saveing your agents.
Giveing information, aka where you dont give us back!

Again, what does this have to do with what I said. You're ignoring the main point and attacking me for just putting allies in quotations.

My theory is that everyone always hates the best. You hate the best sports teams, you hate the most successful businesses and in this case you hate the most powerful country, the United States.

Also, please stop referring to me as an American. I have already told you, I am Canadian.

Originally posted by Flinx
I'm curious, why is China the enemy exactly? Why does everyone think we've going to have some cataclysmic war with them in the future? Why do we have to?

They're not the enemy yet but they are a potential future enemy. It's impossible for me to predict if China and the U.S. will ever go to war but I think America views China as a threat to their superpower status.

Originally posted by slink
Again, what does that have to do with Europe? Most cheap labour is found in Mexico or in Asia.

Yeah and where does the most military tech come from apart form america?
Europe, need i say HK.
There are many cheap labour forces over here.

Alright, so why did you quote me?

sory i was, what i was meaning is that you seem to think the US is the lone gaurdain of the world, and it done it alone.
The world doesnt need the US, it does nothing but screw stuff up , it would just be replaced by another and another and another.

Again, what does this have to do with what I said. You're ignoring the main point and attacking me for just putting allies in quotations.

The main point is that you seem to think britain is in line with china!
Thats what i meant!

My theory is that everyone always hates the best. You hate the best sports teams, you hate the most successful businesses and in this case you hate the most powerful country, the United States.

I hate only those who hurt me, why should i hate someone i havent met who hasnt done anythng to me?

Also, please stop referring to me as an American. I have already told you, I am Canadian.

So why do you support them?

[edit on 25-12-2004 by devilwasp]

[edit on 25-12-2004 by devilwasp]

I think we are both completely misunderstanding each other and by now I've completely forgot what the whole point of this thread is.

The reason I support the United States is because I have no reason not to. I'm a lot happier being under the U.S. economic and military umbrella. Why do I have to conform and hate the United States like everyone else?

Originally posted by slink
The reason I support the United States is because I have no reason not to. I'm a lot happier being under the U.S. economic and military umbrella. Why do I have to conform and hate the United States like everyone else?

Its ok for you not for us.
Man sometimes i think europe should just become neutral.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Its ok for you not for us.
Man sometimes i think europe should just become neutral.

Europe couldn't become neutral because they have very strong opinions. It's not fair to put all the blame on the U.S. for how the world is right now. Britain and France played a big part in shaping the world as it is today because of their colonialism.

Originally posted by slink


Europe couldn't become neutral because they have very strong opinions. It's not fair to put all the blame on the U.S. for how the world is right now. Britain and France played a big part in shaping the world as it is today because of their colonialism.

We shaped the world, but going as far as the americans are going no i dont think so.

Originally posted by devilwaspWe shaped the world, but going as far as the americans are going no i dont think so.

The Americans are doing exactly what the British were doing 100 years ago except at least this time around the Americans are promising democracy.

Setting aside my personal opinion of good or bad for a moment and focusing on the effects, this is bad news. Can you say arms race?

The last thing we need is an "us and them" scenario developing in the arms world, where "them" is such a large group that they could catch up to us if we don't keep spending aggressively. Between Europe, Russia, and China they can certainly make a new arms race interesting.
Nobody really wins these things- everyone screws themselves by wasting too much money on developing new weapons and they end up gutting their society.

This is especially threatening when you take into account the developing standoff with Iran (which buys heavily from Russia and China.
Then there is the Cuba-Venezuela relationship developing in conjuction with Venezuelan attempts to arm up from the Russians and Chinese. My long held opinion that the cold war is still on is starting to look very true.

^^^ Agree completely with you Vagabond, though, has anyone ever told you that you are a very pessimistic person

Originally posted by slink
The Americans are doing exactly what the British were doing 100 years ago except at least this time around the Americans are promising democracy.

So did we, also this is one reason i think we shouldnt let it happen!

Originally posted by Flinx
I'm curious, why is China the enemy exactly? Why does everyone think we've going to have some cataclysmic war with them in the future? Why do we have to?

Greate question, Im wondering the same?

Just forget war, it is total madness.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
^^^ Agree completely with you Vagabond, though, has anyone ever told you that you are a very pessimistic person

No, nobody tells me that. They don't tell me that because nobody cuts me that much slack . More often I am accussed of getting off on spreading fear and anxiety.

If it does anything for my image, I am only so focussed on problems because I spend so much time thinking about solving problems.

Originally posted by DrKollapse

Originally posted by Flinx
I'm curious, why is China the enemy exactly? Why does everyone think we've going to have some cataclysmic war with them in the future? Why do we have to?

Greate question, Im wondering the same?-*+

Just forget war, it is total madness.

Not all wars are waged on the battlefield. Any competition between nations can be considered low-intensity war, even economics.
China will be the enemy until there is a way for our two economies to mutually exist and interact in a way that benefits both nations.
Sometimes this spills over into military conflict, for example when Britain and the USA encouraged Israel to go to war with Egypt over the Suez Canal, America's backing of Iraq in their war for control of the Sha'at Al Arab, or the (possibly) US supported coup attempt in Venezuela recently.

It is important to be capable of mounting a strong defense to ensure that economic rivals will not seek to help their position by threatening your interests in ways similiar to those named above.
China needs to be armed not because America might try to invade China, but because they may have to defend trading partners such as Venezuela or Iran against American or other threats.
America needs to be armed not because Russia wants to invade us, but because we may have to defend potential allies or trading partners such as Turkey or Ukraine from their meddling.