US may withhold military technology from EU allies if they lift arms embargo on China.

It is my opinion that any type of engineering that comes out of Germany is still the best. Those Germans were so far ahead of the world during WW2. The US did everything they could to backwards enigneer a lot of German tech, just as the Russians did. And I don't blame them, you see something that is good and you steal it. That's the way it works. Look at soldiers today. The helmets, the weapons. All of it evolved from the german designs and engineering from WW2. Assault rifles, the M60. Germany, while lead by facist Nazi psychos, was just the slickest of the slick in terms of engineering and industry.

The US has depended on European companies such as Heckler & Koch, MP5 etc family, as well as Fabrique Nationale, M249 or Minimi. I don't see any contemporary American cars in other countries except those in the Middle East. Even in Australia, a country slightly smaller than America with long travelling distances, we don't have any big American cars but our own models. Infact Americans are now buying the Australian Holden Monaro rebadged as a Pontiac...nice car eh?

Germans (and other Europeans) just have a better grasp of engineering in general. American's have no problems making things look good, but really that's just superficial. I want things that are efficient and meticulously crafted. As for weapons of mass destruction, American's are probably number one in that department at the moment. I don't think I'll be buying any in the near future though. But with all of these reports coming out of Russia regarding their new weapon systems, I see a race brewing.

[edit on 26-12-2004 by cargo]

Originally posted by cargo
It is my opinion that any type of engineering that comes out of Germany is still the best. Those Germans were so far ahead of the world during WW2.

Big difference from 60 years ago to now. Rhinemetal (spelling?) still makes the cannon for almost every modern tank in NATO (i'm not 100% sure about the rifled cannon on the Challenger 2 because I could never find a designation for it.)
Of course Merkava 4 is all domestic in Israel and it tends to be rated between 3rd and 5th in best tank ratings. It's not like you can't succeed without German engineering. In fact, isn't the term "Jerry-rigging" a play on "german engineering" from one of the world wars (I know that's neither here nor there).
The germans make a fine cannon, and they have the industry in place to do it already. This however does not mean that America couldn't pick up the ball and run with it- it is much more of an established science now. We could certainly duplicate the weapons Germany currently produces for us and we have virtually no hiccups in beginning to make new innovations of our own, especially because we have such a large population and budget to draw on.

The US has depended on European companies such as Heckler & Koch, MP5 etc family, as well as Fabrique Nationale, M249 or Minimi. I don't see any contemporary American cars in other countries except those in the Middle East. Even in Australia, a country slightly smaller than America with long travelling distances, we don't have any big American cars but our own models. Infact Americans are now buying the Australian Holden Monaro rebadged as a Pontiac...nice car eh?

Don't get too proud of yourself. When the Monaro was first being checked out as a potential model for the new GTO the test drive turned up incredible quality control problems. Even the tail lights fell off!
The problem with the US auto industry is not that Americans can't engineer.
The problem comes from several places:
1. Chevy has dominated the US Auto industry specifically by not over-doing the engineering. They use the McDonald's approach of modularization to improve efficiency at the expense of design. Up until recently (i dont know about new designs) GM had 3 smallblocks which could accomodate any of 6 crankshafts, producing options of 283, 305, 327, 350, 372, 383, and 400. (283 is outdated now, 372 was never produced by GM but came from destroking the 400 block with a 350 crank, 383 was not stock but was sold as a crate engine- it's a stroked 350.) This is an example followed through GM engines. GM tries to get maximum use out of ever block design by stroking it into a million different versions. They even have a V-6 (3.8?) which was made my basically sawing 2 cylinders off of the tooling for a 305 block if memory serves. This reduces the variety of parts needed in the manufacture of Chevy vehicles and increases the price advantage of high production.
2. Business sense: American car companies dont know what they want to be. They won't abandon the V-6 and make high-compression high RPM jap clones, and even if they would the main problem they have against the Japanese is style. They won't go for broke on engineering and manufacturing equipment to play on the same level as the Germans (which we hypothetically could if we wanted the typical American car to sell in the 50+ thousand dollar range). We're neither here nor there, and if there's one thing that you can't sell people its mediocrity.

Germans (and other Europeans) just have a better grasp of engineering in general. American's have no problems making things look good, but really that's just superficial. I want things that are efficient and meticulously crafted. As for weapons of mass destruction, American's are probably number one in that department at the moment. I don't think I'll be buying any in the near future though. But with all of these reports coming out of Russia regarding their new weapon systems, I see a race brewing.

Definately a race brewing, but I wouldn't say that not cooperating with the Germans is going to hurt us that much. We have the know how and we have the money- we just haven't got the firms in place who are already doing it. Anyone can do math... even an American.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Don't get too proud of yourself. When the Monaro was first being checked out as a potential model for the new GTO the test drive turned up incredible quality control problems. Even the tail lights fell off!

That sucks. My brother in laws Monaro is flawless. I guess it was pre-emptive pay back for the watered down weapons tech you will no doubt sell us.

The problem with the US auto industry is not that Americans can't engineer. etc. etc.

I agree with all of that, and I never said American's couldn't engineer. Henry Fords biggest mistake though was selling mediocrity. He seemed to think that nobody would want any bells and whistles like comfortable seats, and all anyone would ever need was in his Model T. Until he learned the errors of his ways after a rise in consumer credit made it within peoples economic reach to have some "luxuries" in their cars, and he had to shut down production for 4 months or some such time because of lost market share and redesign a whole new model (Jeez I hope that's an accurate enough description of what happened, my marketing class was years and years ago, I'd look it up but I'm about to go to bed). It also depends on if we are talking about Americans born and educated or engineers working in the US. The US is good at getting the right people in to do the right job for the right price. And that's good enough. I guess an example of intelligent expatriation would be all of those German scientists post WW2.

[edit on 26-12-2004 by cargo]

Meh they aren't really doing anything America doesn't do. I can remember the US selling Indonesia weapons while they were a dictatorship under general Suharto, who was annexing countries just off our coastline. Pakistan is probably going to get some shiny new weapons from the US some time in the future and who could forget the arms the US supplied to Bin Laden when he worked for the CIA. I think the US has every right to with-hold tech from any country they choose but please don't make the EU out to be satan and the US to be an innocent angel who would never indanger lives for a profit.

"The United States government has aided and abetted the Suharto regime's illegal annexation of East Timor from the moment of Indonesia's 1975 invasion up through the present. Beyond turning a blind eye to Indonesian repression in East Timor, the most tangible expression of U.S. support for the Suharto regime has been a massive, steady supply of U.S. armaments to the Indonesian military."

www.worldpolicy.org...

[edit on 28-12-2004 by Trent]

Everything on the challenger II is made by Vickers of Newcastle in the UK... just clearing that up

Originally posted by Lucretius
Everything on the challenger II is made by Vickers of Newcastle in the UK... just clearing that up

I wondered about that. Do you have any idea if the Brits are making any headway on putting a smoothbore cannon on the Chally2? I don't mean to be picky but last time I checked NATO was really big on ammunition parity. We can't fire your HESH and you can't fire our missiles- what gibs?

I could make some enquiries for you... I live in newcastle and one of my mates has a friend who works for Vickers.

I think the MOD wants to continue using the rifled gun as I have not heard anything recently about a switch... and also considering our governments newly found hostility to DU warheads.

Big difference from 60 years ago to now. Rhinemetal (spelling?) still makes the cannon for almost every modern tank in NATO (i'm not 100% sure about the rifled cannon on the Challenger 2 because I could never find a designation for it.)

For your info, it is the L30.

And there are plans for a smoothbore gun. A 120 mm technical demonstrator is being provided by Rhinemetall, the L55, by 2006, with the gun being developed by BAE Land Systems.

Also, Vickers do not make the tank, as it is BAE Land Systems now. Vickers is a bit of a throwback to the glory days, now almost all British (and a great deal of Foreign) weaponry is made by BAe in one form or another.

Chally 2





[edit on 27/3/05 by stumason]

[edit on 27/3/05 by stumason]