US may withhold military technology from EU allies if they lift arms embargo on China.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Just who the hell are the US to tell us whats right for OUR safety?
This is the same country that has made false claims about WMD and bombed our own troops AND done many evils in the name of "national security" , when will it stop?? EH! when i ask!

devilwasp you are correct and within your rights to say that the US should neither dictate your defence nor whom you sell goods to - that is your countries perogative.

Just as it is the US's right and perogative to choose who it sells its technical goods to in making its rightful decisions about its safety.

Merry Christmas.

Really? baseing this on first hand exsperience.

No, countries are like corporations, and that�s how corporations act...

About trading with other nations that have later turned sour, look at Iran...

Why should we stick with a country that does what it wants but wont let others do what they want?

In the end it is you guys choice... I (personally) believe it would be best for everyone to not trade with them. I also am not one of the people that think that the U.S. should have the final word in you guy�s affairs but from experience and for interests in both of our countries I think that we make some good points some of the time.

I don�t know about everyone else but I do disagree with some of the things that my country does and like people of all nations I do live in fear sometimes for many different reasons. I wouldn�t have a problem if you guys would only trade food and resources but this isn�t simple goods as such. We are talking about devises that have the ability to sway global power influence to someone that can�t even treat its own citizens with dignity and respect. I just hope the proposed trading countries look at the bigger picture before they do anything foolish. But in the end WHO knows? If it works out for them they may end up being one of the best countries in history. I, like many other are afraid of change and especially looking at their past and potential that doesn�t help.

If you where thinking that I don�t appreciate what you�re country is doing for us in greater hope for the world I do appreciate it! Thanks them and bless them! It�s as hard for some of us with a heart to send out young men to see what they shouldn�t see and possibly die early as it is for most of our friends and family in the military. I�ll be headed there in my due time�


[edit on 24-12-2004 by ChrisRT]

Originally posted by ChrisRT

No, countries are like corporations, and that�s how corporations act...

About trading with other nations that have later turned sour, look at Iran...

Yeah, sure what happened in iraq huh? the president and his cabinet went into a meeting and thought yeah those "we kick ass" posters will sell if we invade iraq!

In the end it is you guys choice... I (personally) believe it would be best for everyone to not trade with them. I also am not one of the people that think that the U.S. should have the final word in you guy�s affairs but from experience and for interests in both of our countries I think that we make some good points some of the time.

Yeah of course you would your in the USA and this only benifits the US it doesnt hurt them in anyway.

I don�t know about everyone else but I do disagree with some of the things that my country does and like people of all nations I do live in fear sometimes for many different reasons. I wouldn�t have a problem if you guys would only trade food and resources but this isn�t simple goods as such. We are talking about devises that have the ability to sway global power influence to someone that can�t even treat its own citizens with dignity and respect. I just hope the proposed trading countries look at the bigger picture before they do anything foolish. But in the end WHO knows? If it works out for them they may end up being one of the best countries in history. I, like many other are afraid of change and especially looking at their past and potential that doesn�t help.

So i suppose its ok to sell to dictators but not to any country that has comunism in the name huh?
Take a bigger look, side with a country that uses intimidation to get its way or side with a country that intimidates its citizens? YOU MAKE THE CHOICE!

If you where thinking that I don�t appreciate what you�re country is doing for us in greater hope for the world I do appreciate it! Thanks them and bless them! It�s as hard for some of us with a heart to send out young men to see what they shouldn�t see and possibly die early as it is for most of our friends and family in the military. I�ll be headed there in my due time�
[edit on 24-12-2004 by ChrisRT]

To quote a saying of your ahem "fine" leader , "your etheir with us or them". Frankly if you think this is good then you dont support what we have done or what our troops have died fighting for , NOT THIER COUNTRY YOURS!

Yeah, sure what happened in iraq huh? the president and his cabinet went into a meeting and thought yeah those "we kick " posters will sell if we invade iraq!

Oil? Arms industry? A presence in the region? Only God knows. We could speculate until the Universe ends but the truth will never be known.

Yeah of course you would your in the USA and this only benifits the US it doesnt hurt them in anyway.

Yes, it would benefit my country and in the long run it would benefit you�re country to not sell advanced weapons to the enemy. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, china is by NO means a stable system.


My country doesn�t fire bomb its own people, my country doesn�t take away my rights to free speech on the internet, my country doesn�t spread propaganda on the TV as the norms and my country doesn�t call out the military and give them the go ahead to kill its country.



In the end, you could say the exact same about you�re country back in the 1700's, no?

Originally posted by ChrisRT

Oil? Arms industry? A presence in the region? Only God knows. We could speculate until the Universe ends but the truth will never be known.

Yeah but you dont think US airbases in syria and saudia arabia wherent enough presence?

Yes, it would benefit my country and in the long run it would benefit you�re country to not sell advanced weapons to the enemy. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, china is by NO means a stable system.

The enemy, why do you see everything as an enemy!
Come on! You cant get allies if you dont cooperate!
How is it not stable? Thier population is repressed yet controlled, much like americans but more openly.

My country doesn�t fire bomb its own people, my country doesn�t take away my rights to free speech on the internet, my country doesn�t spread propaganda on the TV as the norms and my country doesn�t call out the military and give them the go ahead to kill its country.

No it thinks its ok to use napalm in a civilain area, sell chemical weapons to a dictator state. Which britian put in place but thats another thread.
Your country does spread propaganda by controlling the schools into being nationalist, you can name every state in america yet not name your allies?
Also what the election run up? I was there and I saw it! There was more propaganda going on their than in china!

In the end, you could say the exact same about you�re country back in the 1700's, no?

My country didnt kill its people in the 1700 more like 1200 but we faught back in 1314!
My country was like yours in that time, killing people in other countries in the name of security.
We know what its like and we know when something is wrong!

What you said above is based on opinion and I don�t want to get into it...

My country didnt kill its people in the 1700 more like 1200 but we faught back in 1314!
My country was like yours in that time, killing people in other countries in the name of security.
We know what its like and we know when something is wrong!

I'm talking about the grip you had on our colony in the mid-1700s.
The rest of the people in Iraq don�t have to fight... They could surrender like most of the regular army did, no?

I don�t see why you are ostracizing us... You are right along side with us at fighting this war.

Both our countries citizens have their supporting population and their opposing population


And for you to say that china is fit, the china that doesn�t obey it�s local laws yet alone international laws, the china that duplicates equipment so it doesn�t have to purchase it, the china that openly threatens other countries, the china that kills its OWN people makes you one gullible fool�

Originally posted by ChrisRT

I'm talking about the grip you had on our colony in the mid-1700s.
The rest of the people in Iraq don�t have to fight... They could surrender like most of the regular army did, no?

Would you surrender if your people where dieing?
My government didnt always keep hold of colonies by killing people.
Many people wanted to stay.

I don�t see why you are ostracizing us... You are right along side with us at fighting this war.

Your country has done what it feels is good for it, rarely for what was good for us.

Both our countries citizens have their supporting population and their opposing population

what are you on about here?

And for you to say that china is fit, the china that doesn�t obey it�s local laws yet alone international laws, the china that duplicates equipment so it doesn�t have to purchase it, the china that openly threatens other countries, the china that kills its OWN people makes you one gullible fool�

Really, like the US doesnt steal tech?
Doesnt kill its own people?
The US didnt obey laws in GW2 and still doesnt!
Dont be a hypocrit!
The US threatens countries every day! DONT THINK THAT YOUR COUNTRY IS A WHITE SHINEING KNIGHT OF FREEDOM BECAUSE ITS NOT!

Originally posted by ChrisRT
What you said above is based on opinion and I don�t want to get into it...

So now your denying all the facts above?
How handy that is isnt it?

Considering Isreal and China have worked together for years, supplying far more US tech than anything Europe might offer (europe has it's own programs)

I can't see what the fuss is about.

Europe will be supplying China European technolgoy

I'm neither agreeing nor denying... I personally did none of the above stated.

Anyway, our country is the Knight in Shining Armor... I think you should move here, have a good time!

Originally posted by devilwasp
So now you saying you dont need the UK?
Didnt need black watch in bagdad?
Didnt need those 3 dead lads who went and died to help americans, yeah thanks a F***ING LOT!

----

The big guy! Listen buddy you think cause your the biggest and strongest you can dictate to us? Well your wrong!
We are independant and free , unhappy about it? Try and invade , frankly you guys would have a hard time and we could get plenty good jets off russia!

First of all, I am Canadian, not American. I never said the United States didn't need Britain, actually I'm happy with the fact that these two countries have very good ties, which cannot be said for the United States and my country. What I said was that the entire world relies on the United States economically. The United States would be fine if it could only trade within its own borders. That cannot be said for any other country in the world, at this moment in time.

Secondly, the United States is the lone hegemon in the world. The world needs a country like the United States to act as the world police. Ideally, the United Nations should act as a police force but unfortunately, Europeans, Russians, Americans and Chinese all have different interests and any attempt to stop any type of aggression is always vetoed. Believe me, without the United States there would be no Europe, only Nazi Germany.

Finally, back on topic, if the United States is the one developing these weapons and they do not want a potential enemy, China, getting hold of them then the U.S. can choose who to sell to and who not to sell to. If the E.U. is planning on selling weapons to China, then Europe can protect themselves. Leaves more time for the U.S. to take care of me here in Canada.

Originally posted by slink


First of all, I am Canadian, not American. I never said the United States didn't need Britain, actually I'm happy with the fact that these two countries have very good ties, which cannot be said for the United States and my country. What I said was that the entire world relies on the United States economically. The United States would be fine if it could only trade within its own borders. That cannot be said for any other country in the world, at this moment in time.

Really?
so you would be happy for the price of your goods to go up?
The prices would go up because more products would have to be made and its more exspensive there than in some farr off country.

Secondly, the United States is the lone hegemon in the world. The world needs a country like the United States to act as the world police. Ideally, the United Nations should act as a police force but unfortunately, Europeans, Russians, Americans and Chinese all have different interests and any attempt to stop any type of aggression is always vetoed. Believe me, without the United States there would be no Europe, only Nazi Germany.

Yeah and if there was no european allies there would be no US, remember the US couldnt invade with out a base aka the UK.
Germany would have smashed the US easily from afar.

Finally, back on topic, if the United States is the one developing these weapons and they do not want a potential enemy, China, getting hold of them then the U.S. can choose who to sell to and who not to sell to. If the E.U. is planning on selling weapons to China, then Europe can protect themselves. Leaves more time for the U.S. to take care of me here in Canada.

Yet you dont want us selling weapons WE make to them?
Frankly the US is trying to stop anyone being equal with them.
The US does what it needs to do to stay on top, regardless of the losses.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
I'm neither agreeing nor denying... I personally did none of the above stated.

Anyway, our country is the Knight in Shining Armor... I think you should move here, have a good time!

Really, so all the whole interegateing prisnors in iraq is what strictly legal?
No.
Is the use of napalm near civilains?
No.
Is the supplying of chemical WMD to another country ethicaly right?
NO.
Your country has done more harm than good, why do you think we tell you to stop pokeing your noses into other peoples affairs.

Yet you dont want us selling weapons WE make to them?

!!! Where have you been? Duh!

Yeah and if there was no european allies there would be no US, remember the US couldnt invade with out a base aka the UK.
Germany would have smashed the US easily from afar.

It would have made it harder to base an invasion force, not impossible.

And what�s this about little Germany crushing the mighty United States?

Is the use of napalm near civilains?

I don�t see any burned civilians, do you?

Your country has done more harm than good, why do you think we tell you to stop pokeing your noses into other peoples affairs.

We are a beast, we don�t have to stop and we WONT stop... Deal with it. You�re proud ass wouldn�t be there today if we hadn�t bailed you out on numerous fronts.

I wasn't going to get involved in this but it would be a mistake for us or anyone else in Europe to sell China Weapons tech that could come back and bite us on the backside in the future. We should not sell them even one bullet, not because the US say we shouldn't, i think we have established it really isn't any of their business who we sell to, but because common sense tells us it would be a bad idea.
Can you imagine in the future when China invades Taiwan(SP), and they will its just a matter of time, and we lose Ships, Troops and Aircraft to weapons that we provided? Its a bad idea, can you imagine how much more effective Chinese aircraft would be fitted with Euro avionics and radar?
We should not help to arm China because it would be foolish to arm a potential enemy.
On the topic of the US trying to tell us who we can and can not sell to, well we will and can sell to who we damn well please just as America does. I don't really care for threats, especially when they come from an ally.
You can put your Sabres away boys, its Christmas

[edit on 24-12-2004 by Janus]

Originally posted by ChrisRT

!!! Where have you been? Duh!

So your arguement is flawed then , if you dont want weapons you devolp being selt then they wont sell them, they would just sell EU ones.
That way YOU in no way are being ripped off so in no way really should be involved.

It would have made it harder to base an invasion force, not impossible.

And what�s this about little Germany crushing the mighty United States?

UMM one thing, carrier force VS lufftwaffe land forces? land forces win, simple.

I don�t see any burned civilians, do you?

No but the fact you are willing to risk thier lives is insane!
jeez man no regard for international law!

We are a beast, we don�t have to stop and we WONT stop... Deal with it. You�re proud ass wouldn�t be there today if we hadn�t bailed you out on numerous fronts.

Yeah and your face wouldnt have looked so good after WW2 etheir, face it you would have been bombed by jet fighters and rockets that you wouldnt be able to stop.
Also how would it of looked in 1950's if america had been seen to kill over 30+ british soldiers in vietnam? We covered it up to save your face , dont say we need you , YOU NEED US!

Originally posted by ChrisRT

!!! Where have you been? Duh!

So your arguement is flawed then , if you dont want weapons you devolp being selt then they wont sell them, they would just sell EU ones.
That way YOU in no way are being ripped off so in no way really should be involved.

It would have made it harder to base an invasion force, not impossible.

And what�s this about little Germany crushing the mighty United States?

UMM one thing, carrier force VS lufftwaffe land forces? land forces win, simple.

I don�t see any burned civilians, do you?

No but the fact you are willing to risk thier lives is insane!
jeez man no regard for international law!

We are a beast, we don�t have to stop and we WONT stop... Deal with it. You�re proud ass wouldn�t be there today if we hadn�t bailed you out on numerous fronts.

Yeah and your face wouldnt have looked so good after WW2 etheir, face it you would have been bombed by jet fighters and rockets that you wouldnt be able to stop.
Also how would it of looked in 1950's if america had been seen to kill over 30+ british soldiers in vietnam? We covered it up to save your face , dont say we need you , YOU NEED US!

Originally posted by slink
Believe me, without the United States there would be no Europe, only Nazi Germany.

Argh, I'm tired of repeating this. Americans have this delusion that they were all powerful during WW2. The fact is, America was where China is in WW2. The American military was worth nothing, but their economy was strong. American M4 Shermans (the main tank of the US Armored Division) commonly engaged German tanks 10-15 vs 1. If you don't believe this, you can go research it or you can ask a WW2 vet yourself. The shells fired from the Shermans just weren't able to break past the heavier tanks that Germany began deploying later in the war.

You need to realize that America was not even recognized as a superpower until you dropped the Atomic Bomb. It wasn't even the great American minds that developed the Atom Bomb anyhow. It was a bunch of captured Nazi scientists. Heck, Albert Einstein was German.

Also, for those not in the know, Russia was the first to reach Berlin (not your glorious American armies). You can thank your wonderful Eisenhower for that.

As outlined by Operation Eclipse, America was to occupy the least amount of German territory. FDR was opposed to this, but it's clear that the European powers cared less for a nation that wasn't even a superpower in itself.

Frankly, America entered WW2 when everything basically eased off in the European theater. Germany had lost all of its air superiority and was being crushed in Russia. Hitler conquered all of Europe and lost it all bit by bit. America entered when the man started taking control of every division and regiment. Politicians should not be generals; hence why our commander-in-chief (Bush) is such a failure. Hitler would not have lost what he had if he had given his generals such as Erwin Rommel, Heinz Guderian, and Erich von Manstein, who were clearly superior strategists to any American general you can think of, less commands and more freedom. Imagine Bush dictating the strategy in Iraq - it only means failure.

Anyhow, enough of the history lesson. I read too many WW2 books . Who cares if the US stops sending military hardware to the EU? The Europeans have historically been independant (and competitive amongst eachother). Also, recent reports show that European education is the best in the world. If I recall correctly, only 96% of Americans are literate; whereas, in Europe, the number is generally 100%. Just several days in America and one can clearly recognize a deteriorating society. Ever since the 50's or 60's (sometime after WW2), when "American culture" developed, one could forecast that the nation was doomed. Take a tour through an American school. Then take a tour through a European school. Tell me which one has better discipline, more hard workers, and more individuals that are likely to succeed. If you walk into an American school, you're likely to find people throwing objects around the room or going absolutely crazy when there are substitutes. In all honesty, with such an education system and an overwhelming number of people UNWILLING to learn anything (mind you, they exists almost everywhere in the US), America will soon lose its technological lead.

UMM one thing, carrier force VS lufftwaffe land forces? land forces win, simple.

Huh? Whatever...

No but the fact you are willing to risk thier lives is insane!
jeez man no regard for international law!

Oh quit fooling yourself...

Yeah and your face wouldnt have looked so good after WW2 etheir, face it you would have been bombed by jet fighters and rockets that you wouldnt be able to stop.
Also how would it of looked in 1950's if america had been seen to kill over 30+ british soldiers in vietnam? We covered it up to save your face , dont say we need you , YOU NEED US!

We don�t need you, you need us... You have a rosy concept of the world.. Its a crude reality and the ones that know how to run it will continue to do so while the others like you are somewhat a leach and in the middle. I don�t know about the 30+ soldiers in Nam but you'd be a fool to think it was on purpose... you act like such a think would ruin a country

Originally posted by ChrisRT

Yeah and if there was no european allies there would be no US, remember the US couldnt invade with out a base aka the UK.
Germany would have smashed the US easily from afar.

It would have made it harder to base an invasion force, not impossible.

And what�s this about little Germany crushing the mighty United States?

Once again, the delusions that prevail in America as one can clearly see. Germany, albeit a small country, had the LARGEST mechanized force in the world. Devilwasp is correct. Germany would have smashed the US from afar. They were already researching long-range rockets to hit Washington DC. Had America not been an ocean away, it would have been annihilated by Germany's blitzkrieg. No WW2 vet will acknowledge that America was stronger than Germany during WW2. Not exactly what your patriotic mind wanted to hear, eh?