Russia lifts ban on delivering missile-defence system to Iran

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: mSparks43

Thanks a lot.

One more question..........does the size of the IRST radar matter in determining the range of detection. Currently airborne IRSTs on planes can detect atmost upto 60 miles only. Would increasing the size help. Read somewhere that IRST of on F-14s were really powerful due to being big in size.

S-400s under severe jamming environment can detect stealth at 60 miles or so and that is little too close for comfort.

Maybe, if emitting at maximum power. That has some downsides as well. Also, the more sensitive the detector, e.g. to detect stealth at 60 miles (really? not km?), the easier it is to overload at a distance from a microwave weapon.

Ground-based SAM stations can be quite advanced, but they never give up the major deficiency vs aircraft of not being able to move around at 600 mph and fight at the same time.

a reply to: yuppa

I didn't forget anything, but unlike you, I dug deeper to see how it targets a radar that is off...which you have neglected to do.

It does so with MMW radar...which tracks the communication range of frequencies, under the assumption that the passive radar would require wireless communication to pass their data onto another position. That is a flawed assumption. If the passive radar is close enough to the ACS for direct connection, MMW won't detect anything. It is too easy to shield against MMW seepage...it is done in every consumer electronic and vehicle if you were wondering. You are also assuming that a battery will only have one radar, which is another flawed assumption. It is typical for the S-300 batteries to have multiple radars, of different types, and if they are deployed efficiently, random spurts of chatter (with radars off) are going to have an AARGM dancing all over the place. Alternatively, if they deploy similar to the Russians, they are just going to let off something cheap and noisy (like an Osa decoy) and watch the AARGM chase the decoy which ever way they launched it. Best case scenario, it chases the decoy, worst case scenario, they lose a minor element of the battery.

And yes, I am well aware that JAASM's can be updated in flight. But you are under the assumption that A) satellite presence is continuous (it is not), and B) that satellite transmissions will be reliable during war. A very bold assumption when dealing with an enemy in which you can't name the SAM radar, let alone electronic warfare suites.

I know you are desperate to find some sort of guaranteed US superiority here, but you are wasting your tiem. The battlefield is leveling, not tilting. Deal with it, adapt around it, and move in.

a reply to: peck420

->which tracks the communication range of frequencies

Which reminds me.

Military comms has come a long way too.
I believe (but I'm guessing) the s300 adds a comms network that functions similarly to the WWW - multiple paths and repeaters of secure comms carrying more than just radar details.

I think this was one of the mistakes Iraq made in 91 and 04 - filling this comms network with too much stuff at too high a power.

Blah blah blah. Zaphod knows more than all of us and ill take his judgement over anything anyone else says here in this thread. Argue all you want toss up stats that have no real bearing but the fact is the S-300 is crap. And thats why they are selling them to Iran. Greece even gave the shut down codes to the CIA for them as well. They let the US air force fly against it and developed strategies to kill them as well.

Its not that america weapons have to be invincible,but it is very well defended.

a reply to: yuppa

Putin is selling S-300s to Iran to tell the US that if it arms Ukraine then Russia will be more than happy to provide weapons to America's dislikes like NK, Syria, Iran and others.

S-300s crap? I think at some point even US had expressed interest in buying this SAM. The version given to Greeks is export grade anyways. Also, if Greeks flaunt the details of S-300s like letting USAF fly and test against it, then they can say "goodbye" to sophisticated Russian weapons in the future. Regarding shut down codes and other programmings, all these can be changed at will.

By writing this nonsense shows that you are afraid of these SAMs and trying to deny the truth.

a reply to: peck420

Very Good post Peck !! Folks are forgetting the point defense systems like Pantsirs and in a near future addition of Lasers to these point defense goodies.

One Youtube video for probably Lockheed, there was a UCAV approaching an area and any SAM missiles sent in its direction were dealt with the lasers on the UCAVs. It seems Lasers are going to become a big part of warfare soon for both offensive and defensive purposes.

Btw, do you guys have any inputs of the MALDs i.e. mineature air launched decoys. These are supposed to be "fooling" the SAMs regarding the radar signatures and inticing them to fire thinking approaching item is B52s etc. Would these be noticed by the airborne IRSTs as these have to do with the actual size of the flying object and not the programmed EM waves projecting a false radar signature.

a reply to: victor7

if iuyc and they can fit lazers to a uav.
the world is about to change.

problem with lazers has been the amount of eletric energy you have to store for them to use requires several tons of battery/generator/rapid discharge components.

only way that was going to change was if they actually got room temperature superconductors working. and although they have made some leaps in the last few years I'm not aware they have been able to produce usable material.

if they have. then both offense and defense are a very different place. as will be every bit of our lives.

I'm inclined to believe it's still a pipe dream for anything but land based trucks that can move around the hardware. and largely impractical even then - too delicate.

a reply to: mSparks43

www.youtube.com...

Here is the video. At 3:49, the laser defense against the missiles takes place and then later on lasers are used to attack the ground assets. Is this true or just a projection of technology into the future?

a reply to: victor7
technically "not" a lazer.

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I've been quite critical, because DE is expensive in terms of payload per Kg, and defending against it fairly cheap and easy.

something like this is the next step to getting back what was had with flares and chaff, before the missiles got smart enough to ignore them. But without decent lightwieght supercapacitors, totally impractical.

Misleading video, because they wouldn't have the "red dots" on the screen identifying targets - at best they would be potential targets.

Here's what those systems currently look like "not" cgi, with a poxy range of 1.5km

www.youtube.com...

compare that with a decent AAA, which is lethal to 20km, and fits on the back of a pickup truck.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: yuppa

Putin is selling S-300s to Iran to tell the US that if it arms Ukraine then Russia will be more than happy to provide weapons to America's dislikes like NK, Syria, Iran and others.

S-300s crap? I think at some point even US had expressed interest in buying this SAM. The version given to Greeks is export grade anyways. Also, if Greeks flaunt the details of S-300s like letting USAF fly and test against it, then they can say "goodbye" to sophisticated Russian weapons in the future. Regarding shut down codes and other programmings, all these can be changed at will.

By writing this nonsense shows that you are afraid of these SAMs and trying to deny the truth.

Afraid of a peice of tech that can be defeated much easier than is advertised huh? SOrry they dont scare me. Its a tool just liek a gun. The F-35 is a S-300 killer according to their manufacturer.Say I have a idea. use Bio weapons to kill the sam crews. Put ballons in the air near the edge of space that drift over the sites,then drop. We could use our Space plane to drop them too from space. Skirting the weapons ban in space. The Greeks did let the US test the systems out to find weaknesses. Even if was a export version its still the same system and that lets you glean countermeasures. Greece can make its own future SAMS based on the russian ones if need be liek Iran does.

Passive radar that detects air movement cant detect it where there is no air right? Hmm dropping a JDAM from space can b e done. Heres how. put them in the cargo bay of the space plane we have. Drop them out and into reentry with ceramic heatshielding. when they get to altitude a parachute opens and they drift until over their target. then chute cuts and it drops. Costly? yeah,but not as costly as a aircraft right?.

a reply to: yuppa

hint
spending millions of dollars
to destroy a couple of thousand dollars worth of hardware

is not exactly a great way to win a war.

originally posted by: mSparks43
a reply to: yuppa

hint
spending millions of dollars
to destroy a couple of thousand dollars worth of hardware

is not exactly a great way to win a war.

Actually fitting ceramic shielded Jdams and launching them on that space plane is still cheaper than the cost of a Fighter craft making the cost cheap in the long run. And besides if its a War to end all wars cost is not a option.

a reply to: yuppa

Passive radar that detects air movement cant detect it where there is no air right?

that would make it easier for passive radar to detect disturbance at to that height. with little air disturbance even a minute one cause by 600mph plane would stand out like a sore thumb.

btw, upto 60k feet of ceiling air is very thin..........but it is not absent.

a reply to: yuppa

all wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers.

btw, did you miss the bit about the s300 being designed in the first place to take out incoming ICBMs from space.

rt.com...

its a defensive weapon, but watch Israel cry to the UN.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: yuppa

Passive radar that detects air movement cant detect it where there is no air right?

that would make it easier for passive radar to detect disturbance at to that height. with little air disturbance even a minute one cause by 600mph plane would stand out like a sore thumb.

btw, upto 60k feet of ceiling air is very thin..........but it is not absent.

Victor thats what the parachutes are for to slow the decent of the Bombs. SO they reduce speed so low to nto draw attention to them until they are too close to avoid.

a reply to: mSparks43

all wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers.

while not denying this fact, but the problem arises with ego and arrogance which leads to policies of "total spectrum domination". west is obsessed with the approach and hence most of the wars are being traced back to western nose poking into the affairs of other countries.

a reply to: yuppa

so while parachutes are descending the SAM crews are busy playing snakes and ladders..............don't think so!

are you guys into stealth parachutes by any chance?

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: yuppa

so while parachutes are descending the SAM crews are busy playing snakes and ladders..............don't think so!

are you guys into stealth parachutes by any chance?

Take into account the SIZE of the chute. Im not talking about a huge parachute. youve seen chutes on SUb munitions before right? Sure a huge parachute would be detected fast but a small one close to the weapon not so much. And make sure its a picture guided version so no need for a "lock" so to speak.

originally posted by: mSparks43
a reply to: yuppa

all wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers.

btw, did you miss the bit about the s300 being designed in the first place to take out incoming ICBMs from space.

rt.com...

I thought it was for any airborne threat myself. Still a surprise attack by a slow approach weapon from above with small chutes that is not giving off any EM radiation or heat high enough to pick up would be very hard to defend against.