Jesus so called "sacrifice" on the cross

originally posted by: chr0naut
Anyway, it's early morning here beneath the baleful flickering glow of Mount Doom.

I'm off to sleep.

You can troll-on, though.

so this is what its all come down to? anybody who questions christian "logic" is a troll?

good job.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: rokkuman
As we keep pointing out, he went through the experience of death.
He died.

He died temporarily.

He still died.

for three days. after which he became king of the universe. and also very much not dead.

when the reward outweighs the job, it stops being a sacrifice and starts being a bargain. then again, it isnt much of a bargain if you demote yourself from ceo, provoke your employees into killing you, and rehire yourself into the chair again. might want to start questioning management at that point.

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: deadeyedick

Here you go again.



First off it was a sacrifice because he knew what they were gonna do to him before they did.



He did not run or fight.



By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.



We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.



When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.



The reason he came back to life is because the spirit of truth and justice dwelled over the event and life was granted back to him because of his deed.



It is the faith he had that led the angels back to him.

"he did not run or fight"



- jesus ran away and escaped on several occassions.

The reason he came back to life is because ....

exactly he came back to life, i.e. he is not dead. So its odd how christians keep claiming jesus died or was sacrificed.

blasfemy

we were speaking of the cross and you jumped to the temple to interject the falsehood that at the cross jesus ran.

i want to respect your views but such that you post takes away that option for me

a reply to: rokkuman

Guten Tag- Let Us as a collective cut to the chase, what is it You're seeking? What do You think happens when Your 'skin-suit' has hit it's expiration date? Will Your Soul be passed on or will it cease? Do these feelings make You uncomfortable? Wouldn't then those same feelings affect others?

Sure, if You get to the bottom of this it "may" cramp many of the Chris†ians™ yelling at 5 year olds "JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS!!!" But that isn't J's fault...

I also noticed 'some' wondering what happened to the many Souls who died prior to Jesus' presence, "Good Luck" getting an answer..

Everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die...

This answer and every other answer You already KNOW... Look inside of Your own Self and when You find it and You certainly will if You look ("Seek and Ye shall find..."- Jesus) then it won't matter what We do/think because We will "catch up" as Every Body makes it, if You are in a "Body" then You are 'Special' but because We are all "special" You don't need the tag of "Special"...

namaste

Religion™ is for folks afraid of Hell, "Spirituality" is for folks that have already been...-The Great Sioux Nation.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: deadeyedick

Here you go again.



First off it was a sacrifice because he knew what they were gonna do to him before they did.



He did not run or fight.



By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.



We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.



When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.



The reason he came back to life is because the spirit of truth and justice dwelled over the event and life was granted back to him because of his deed.



It is the faith he had that led the angels back to him.

"he did not run or fight"



- jesus ran away and escaped on several occassions.

The reason he came back to life is because ....

exactly he came back to life, i.e. he is not dead. So its odd how christians keep claiming jesus died or was sacrificed.

blasfemy

we were speaking of the cross and you jumped to the temple to interject the falsehood that at the cross jesus ran.

i want to respect your views but such that you post takes away that option for me

Only believers can commit blasphemy (note the spelling).

a reply to: chr0naut

Job, it seems, also believed in reincarnation.

Job 1:21
He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there.

Job 14:7-
If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 33
'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' 29"Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, 30To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.…
"God does all these things to a person-- twice, even three times"

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

God is omniscient (All Knowing) in the Bible.. Examples below.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

1 John 3:20 - For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 147:4-5 - He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 6:8 - So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Why does God need to manifest in flesh in order to understand any of the above you mentioned?
During some stage of the crucifiction, why did Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? Does that come across as someone who is surrendering/offering their life for a sacrifice?

Where is the logic in the 'Son' questioning himself as Christians believe the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one.
(1+1+1 =?). Are they the same deity?

Was Jesus Man or God on the cross? Where was God if Jesus was Man on earth..

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: chr0naut

Job, it seems, also believed in reincarnation.

Job 1:21
He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there.

Job 14:7-
If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 33
'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' 29"Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, 30To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.…
"God does all these things to a person-- twice, even three times"

Actually, resurrection, not reincarnation. He would see God in his own body, not be reborn in another body.

a reply to: chr0naut

I don't know how one can enter the womb again, without reincarnation. Job said that he will return to the womb.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: chr0naut

I don't know how one can enter the womb again, without reincarnation. Job said that he will return to the womb.

maybe its a metaphor for water.

that was a hard one.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: deadeyedick



Here you go again.







First off it was a sacrifice because he knew what they were gonna do to him before they did.







He did not run or fight.







By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.







We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.







When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.







The reason he came back to life is because the spirit of truth and justice dwelled over the event and life was granted back to him because of his deed.







It is the faith he had that led the angels back to him.

"he did not run or fight"







- jesus ran away and escaped on several occassions.

The reason he came back to life is because ....

exactly he came back to life, i.e. he is not dead. So its odd how christians keep claiming jesus died or was sacrificed.

blasfemy



we were speaking of the cross and you jumped to the temple to interject the falsehood that at the cross jesus ran.



i want to respect your views but such that you post takes away that option for me

Only believers can commit blasphemy (note the spelling).

Your statment is even more wrong than my speling skils

it is ok though i forgiv you (note the love)

a reply to: TzarChasm

Perhaps Jesus' sacrifice is a metaphor also. A metaphor for our own divine nature, as being spiritual beings who decided to descend to this gravity well called Earth, temporarily giving up our divinity in exchange for a physical experience of suffering, sadness and pain mixed with joy and euphoria. The only way out of this theme park is death, but soon afterwards, we all find ourselves back home, in our divine consciousnesses.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: TzarChasm

Perhaps Jesus' sacrifice is a metaphor also. A metaphor for our own divine nature, as being spiritual beings who decided to descend to this gravity well called Earth, temporarily giving up our divinity in exchange for a physical experience of suffering, sadness and pain mixed with joy and euphoria. The only way out of this theme park is death, but soon afterwards, we all find ourselves back home, in our divine consciousnesses.

whatever floats your boat.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: chr0naut

I don't know how one can enter the womb again, without reincarnation. Job said that he will return to the womb.

The word translated as return, "שׁוּב" (shub) actually has a broader meaning. It more literally means to 'turn back' but not to the starting point (with an implicit sense of 'being restored'), which is a conscious action and does not imply an involuntary return.

It actually says "Naked I came from my mothers belly and naked I shall turn back".

The 'turn back', from both context and tradition is taken to be a euphemism for death (and resurrection).

The concept of reincarnation is conspicuously absent from the Bible so to apply it here would be out of place.

originally posted by: Ihsaan

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

God is omniscient (All Knowing) in the Bible.. Examples below.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

1 John 3:20 - For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 147:4-5 - He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 6:8 - So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Why does God need to manifest in flesh in order to understand any of the above you mentioned?
During some stage of the crucifiction, why did Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? Does that come across as someone who is surrendering/offering their life for a sacrifice?

Where is the logic in the 'Son' questioning himself as Christians believe the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one.
(1+1+1 =?). Are they the same deity?

Was Jesus Man or God on the cross? Where was God if Jesus was Man on earth..

Understanding the verses and taking them literally are two different things.

What crucifixion? There's no contemporaneous documentation proving that Jesus lived or was crucified and no one who wrote any of the words attributed to Jesus lived when he allegedly lived or witnessed him saying anything.

a reply to: Tangerine

contemporaneous documentation

I know of several million people in the us right now that also fit your criteria.

Several that just happen to be named JESUS.

Do you work for INS asking for such papers?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Ihsaan

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

God is omniscient (All Knowing) in the Bible.. Examples below.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

1 John 3:20 - For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 147:4-5 - He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 6:8 - So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Why does God need to manifest in flesh in order to understand any of the above you mentioned?
During some stage of the crucifiction, why did Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? Does that come across as someone who is surrendering/offering their life for a sacrifice?

Where is the logic in the 'Son' questioning himself as Christians believe the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one.
(1+1+1 =?). Are they the same deity?

Was Jesus Man or God on the cross? Where was God if Jesus was Man on earth..

Understanding the verses and taking them literally are two different things.

What crucifixion? There's no contemporaneous documentation proving that Jesus lived or was crucified and no one who wrote any of the words attributed to Jesus lived when he allegedly lived or witnessed him saying anything.

All of the new testament was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. So every book of the New Testament was written in less than 37 years after the Crucifixion.

All people, places and events mentioned are historically verified exactly as mentioned in the New Testament.

There are thousands of documents and fragments supporting the Gospel texts, some of them secular and anti-Christian.

The lives, exploits and deaths of the Disciples (who were there with Jesus in person) were documented and are historically verifiable.

To keep saying that there was no contemporary record of Christ is simply incorrect.

a reply to: chr0naut

which is a conscious action and does not imply an involuntary return.

Who told you reincarnation is involuntary? Do you think that Elijah's return as John the Baptist's was involuntary?

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

It actually says "Naked I came from my mothers belly and naked I shall turn back".

If you actually parse that sentence correctly, you'd see that Job is going "back" to the womb.

The 'turn back', from both context and tradition is taken to be a euphemism for death (and resurrection).

Death isn't in the womb! How can one turn back to death?

The concept of reincarnation is conspicuously absent from the Bible so to apply it here would be out of place.

LOL! Only if you refuse to see it.

Malachi 4:5
"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

John 9
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Ihsaan

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

God is omniscient (All Knowing) in the Bible.. Examples below.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

1 John 3:20 - For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 147:4-5 - He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 6:8 - So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Why does God need to manifest in flesh in order to understand any of the above you mentioned?
During some stage of the crucifiction, why did Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? Does that come across as someone who is surrendering/offering their life for a sacrifice?

Where is the logic in the 'Son' questioning himself as Christians believe the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one.
(1+1+1 =?). Are they the same deity?

Was Jesus Man or God on the cross? Where was God if Jesus was Man on earth..

Understanding the verses and taking them literally are two different things.

What crucifixion? There's no contemporaneous documentation proving that Jesus lived or was crucified and no one who wrote any of the words attributed to Jesus lived when he allegedly lived or witnessed him saying anything.

All of the new testament was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. So every book of the New Testament was written in less than 37 years after the Crucifixion.

All people, places and events mentioned are historically verified exactly as mentioned in the New Testament.

There are thousands of documents and fragments supporting the Gospel texts, some of them secular and anti-Christian.

The lives, exploits and deaths of the Disciples (who were there with Jesus in person) were documented and are historically verifiable.

To keep saying that there was no contemporary record of Christ is simply incorrect.

Everything in this post is a lie.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Ihsaan

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

God is omniscient (All Knowing) in the Bible.. Examples below.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

1 John 3:20 - For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 147:4-5 - He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 6:8 - So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Why does God need to manifest in flesh in order to understand any of the above you mentioned?
During some stage of the crucifiction, why did Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? Does that come across as someone who is surrendering/offering their life for a sacrifice?

Where is the logic in the 'Son' questioning himself as Christians believe the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one.
(1+1+1 =?). Are they the same deity?

Was Jesus Man or God on the cross? Where was God if Jesus was Man on earth..

Understanding the verses and taking them literally are two different things.

What crucifixion? There's no contemporaneous documentation proving that Jesus lived or was crucified and no one who wrote any of the words attributed to Jesus lived when he allegedly lived or witnessed him saying anything.

All of the new testament was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. So every book of the New Testament was written in less than 37 years after the Crucifixion.

All people, places and events mentioned are historically verified exactly as mentioned in the New Testament.

There are thousands of documents and fragments supporting the Gospel texts, some of them secular and anti-Christian.

The lives, exploits and deaths of the Disciples (who were there with Jesus in person) were documented and are historically verifiable.

To keep saying that there was no contemporary record of Christ is simply incorrect.

It is patently false that all of the New Testament was written prior to 70 AD. The earliest of the Gospels is dated to 70 AD and the rest after that with John dating to 100-110 AD. You'll find few Biblical scholars who dispute that and the few who do date Mark to 65 AD. Of course, you will find a few preachers educated in 3 months at a backwoods Bible school who disagree.

Don't bother quoting scripture to me. I won't read it. I've read the Bible. Would you like me to quote "Lord of the Rings" to you and expect you to take it as fact?

There is not an iota of contemporaneous documentation proving that Jesus ever lived. If you dispute that, cite the documentation so I can alert historians and the world media.