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Jesus so called "sacrifice" on the cross

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posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:05 AM
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originally posted by: rokkuman
If I sacrifice my arm for you today (for whatever reason) and a new one magically grows back tomorrow does it still mean I sacrificed my arm for you???

Even if it came back, you would still have gone through the experience of losing it, so yes.

But when it comes down to it, all you're doing is quibbling about what label to attach to the event.
The event itself is what matters.
Let's call it a "self-offering", and then you don't have to agonise over whether "sacrifice" is right.




posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:06 AM
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But semantics make the world go round


a reply to: DISRAELI


An offering of what & to whom?



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:12 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: rokkuman
If I sacrifice my arm for you today (for whatever reason) and a new one magically grows back tomorrow does it still mean I sacrificed my arm for you???

Even if it came back, you would still have gone through the experience of losing it, so yes.

But when it comes down to it, all you're doing is quibbling about what label to attach to the event.
The event itself is what matters.
Let's call it a "self-offering", and then you don't have to agonise over whether "sacrifice" is right.


no youre arguing semantics. lets go with "sacrifice" because thats what the bible says

romans 3:25 - People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life.....

so how could Jesus "sacrifice" his life when clearly Jesus came back to life.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:15 AM
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a reply to: Eunuchorn
The answer to "what" is obvious enough. A "self-offering" is the offering of oneself.
"The question "to whom" is not given a direct answer.
We are told the occasion for it, "on account of sin", and the motive, "for the benefit of many".



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:21 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman
The Bible does not say that at that location. For a start, you have got the reference wrong and you are citing a completely different verse. If you correct the reference, I can check a modern translation.
If that is what Paul said, then what you are doing is quibbling with Paul's usage of the word. Evidently he felt that what he believed and taught matched his understanding of the word "sacrifice".

No, on re-checking, I think you're using a paraphrase version which gives a paraphrase of what the RSV calls "an expiation in his blood".


edit on 7-2-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:32 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Not interested in arguing your interpretations of a 2000 year old book of stories that makes zero sense except to those who believe it.

Lets just a stick to the bible premise - since Jesus ultimately came back to life why do christians keep advertising the idea that Jesus "died" or was "sacrificed"? It isnt because sacrifice means its gone for good not gone temporarily.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:35 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: rokkuman
The Bible does not say that at that location. For a start, you have got the reference wrong and you are citing a completely different verse. If you correct the reference, I can check a modern translation.


please. romans 3:25 is the correct location so dont tell me I got the reference wrong.

biblehub.com...

check "new living translation".



New Living Translation
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,


thats the part I quoted earlier


other translations also use the word "sacrifice".
edit on 7-2-2015 by rokkuman because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:38 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman
He did die. He went through the experience of dying.
When I die, I expect to be raised from the dead myself (in the long-term), but I will still have gone through the experience of dying.

If you think it makes no sense to argue over the interpretation of a 2000 year old book, then why the dickens are you starting a debate on the correct interpretation of a 2000 year old book?



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:41 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman
Yes, as I speculated at the bottom of the post you replied to, you used a paraphrase version which has inserted the word "sacrifice" as part of its paraphrasing.

But as I said, if Paul used that word, then he obviously thought the word matched what he believed and taught.
You are arguing with Paul about the correct way to use words in New Testament Greek.


edit on 7-2-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:57 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: rokkuman
He did die. He went through the experience of dying.
When I die, I expect to be raised from the dead myself (in the long-term), but I will still have gone through the experience of dying.

you being raised from the dead in the long term and Jesus "sacrifice"/"death" and almost immediate resurrection are 2 different things.




If you think it makes no sense to argue over the interpretation of a 2000 year old book, then why the dickens are you starting a debate on the correct interpretation of a 2000 year old book?


I'll post what I said earlier to someone else




Christians should not make the mistake of thinking those who point out flaws in the bible are looking for a biblical explanations. We know christians are expert mental gymnast who use the bible as a foundation for their "reasonings" and so for them it would only be a matter of saying "see, this verse says this and that verse says that therefore the problem is solved".

That approach might work great for christians looking to keep their faith but for everybody else you would need to keep the bible aside and put your thinking caps on and answer using only logic.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:07 AM
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originally posted by: rokkuman
you being raised from the dead in the long term and Jesus "sacrifice"/"death" and almost immediate resurrection are 2 different things.

The fact remains that he went through the experience of death.
So it would be nonsense to say that he "did not die".



That approach might work great for christians looking to keep their faith but for everybody else you would need to keep the bible aside and put your thinking caps on and answer using only logic.

Pure logic is for the philosophy forum.
If you raise questions about Christian theology in a theology sub-forum like this one, then Christians are entitled to give theological answers.

And if you invent private definitions of words for quibbling purposes, then they are entitled to point out that this is what you are doing.
If your quibble is based on a Biblical word, then it is only right to point out the Biblical understanding of that word.
I'm quite happy to go with "self-offering" instead, but if Paul said "sacrifice", he thought the word matched what he believed and taught.

edit on 7-2-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:08 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman

Jesus did not die quickly and painlessly.

He was tortured to death over a period of hours.

To willingly submit to that, even if He knew He would rise again, is sacrifice.


edit on 7/2/2015 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:20 AM
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originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: deadeyedick

So before jesus died, every human that died burned in hell?

If jesus came back to life, where is he now?


Sitting next to His dad most times.

Other times, He handles most of the High Priestly Duties in the Celestial Temple.

Still other times He and His co-worker,the Holy Spirit, intercede on behalf of all the believing sinners because, face it, they keep doing it.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:23 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman

Jesus was a deity, timeless, immortal and all powerful. Creator of the universe.

He became human.

Still is.

That is sacrifice.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:26 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: rokkuman
Yes, as I speculated at the bottom of the post you replied to, you used a paraphrase version which has inserted the word "sacrifice" as part of its paraphrasing.

But as I said, if Paul used that word, then he obviously thought the word matched what he believed and taught.
You are arguing with Paul about the correct way to use words in New Testament Greek.



regardless of what word you prefer to use lets get one thing straight - does the bible teach that Jesus life came to an end? Yes or no?

almost every christian I know mentions the so called "sacrifice" and how salvation depends on a person believing that jesus was "sacrificed".



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:27 AM
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originally posted by: Eunuchorn

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: deadeyedick



So before jesus died, every human that died burned in hell?



If jesus came back to life, where is he now?


You lost me.
where did the burning in hell part come from in my post?

Jesus is just chillin.


originally posted by: deadeyedick

By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.

We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.

When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.


Jesus is just chillin? So he accepts we can do nothing but sin, & so long as we accept that he came back to life & is chillin somewhere, it doesn't matter how many sins we commit?


originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: TzarChasm
Once you account for the spirit then death takes on a new form for some.


In my experience, Christians fear death more than most. Hell, their staple philosophy is if you aren't God-fearing, you're an ignorant sinner.


If you are God fearing, it doesn't make you less a sinner. Just more forgiven.



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:29 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: rokkuman
you being raised from the dead in the long term and Jesus "sacrifice"/"death" and almost immediate resurrection are 2 different things.

The fact remains that he went through the experience of death.
So it would be nonsense to say that he "did not die".



That approach might work great for christians looking to keep their faith but for everybody else you would need to keep the bible aside and put your thinking caps on and answer using only logic.

Pure logic is for the philosophy forum.

so then the bible stories is incompatible with pure logic. okay then. So maybe that explains a lot.




And if you invent private definitions of words for quibbling purposes, then they are entitled to point out that this is what you are doing.
If your quibble is based on a Biblical word, then it is only right to point out the Biblical understanding of that word.
I'm quite happy to go with "self-offering" instead, but if Paul said "sacrifice", he thought the word matched what he believed and taught.

you are the one quibbling over words.

doesnt matter what word you want to use because many bible translations uses the word "sacrifice".

hebrews 10:14
biblehub.com...


or has the bible been mistranslated?

edit on 7-2-2015 by rokkuman because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:30 AM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: TzarChasm

That is only if the logic that being killed to save your brothers and sisters from something worse than what we have now is considered losing. Once you account for the spirit then death takes on a new form for some.


yeah, lets not forget that the same guy who decided centuries beforehand that it would be legitimate to have his own son brutally crucified (which left him plenty of time to revise things but we'll presume [incorrectly] that there were no other viable solutions) also designed the torture chamber his son was supposed to sacrifice himself to save us from. feels like a lot of these strings go back to the same set of bloody hands.


Jesus IS that God who designed His own demise. He was more than a victim. They were His own bloody hands.


edit on 7/2/2015 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: rokkuman
Yes, the Bible teaches that Jesus went through the experience of death, partly as the result of a willing self-offering.
The exact label we attach to the event is not important.
If Paul and the author of Hebrews called it a sacrifice, then the event obviously matched their understanding of the word, which is more important than your understanding of the word.

("Answer Yes or No" is a well-known attorney's trick.
"Have you stopped beating your wife? Answer Yes or No")



posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 04:33 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: rokkuman
you being raised from the dead in the long term and Jesus "sacrifice"/"death" and almost immediate resurrection are 2 different things.

The fact remains that he went through the experience of death.
So it would be nonsense to say that he "did not die".


I am not saying he did not die (according to the tale in the bible)
However his death was only temporary and actually not much of a big deal because he came back with a better body.

So why the heck do Christians make such a big fuss about his so called "sacrifice" and "death"?
Why do christians teach that everybody who doesnt believe jesus was sacrificed burn in hell forever?



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