The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: StopWhiningAboutIt

I am serious about civil liberties.

I do not doubt that but also for many Vegans the Liberty of other animals is also a serious matter

Not for Nothing but he did say Civil Liberties.
Plants and Animals don't have those because they are not citizens.

a reply to: Punisher75

Of course Citizenship is a Human concept ... perhaps animal rights and welfare is what I should have said

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Punisher75

Of course Citizenship is Human concept ... perhaps animal rights and welfare is what I should have said

Well I am not bringing it up to be nit-picky, but more because the argument as I understand it between you and he was as it concerned people who are citizens.
What I mean by that is he as a citizen has civil liberty to eat or not to eat meat.
Vegans as a Citizen have the right to not eat meat.

However their argument I think is only to say, that one citizen (the vegan in this example) should not have the right to take another citizens (in this case the meat eater) civil liberties for the welfare of a non citizen.

I really hope that read well.

a reply to: Punisher75

Well I agree ... sometimes typing stuff does not come across as intended

Again I agree we are each entitled to Liberty

I too hope this reads well ... Cheers AP

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Punisher75

Of course Citizenship is a Human concept ... perhaps animal rights and welfare is what I should have said

How do you distinguish between life that's morally acceptable ( for the sake of the topic) to consume and that which is not?

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Punisher75

Well I agree ... sometimes typing stuff does not come across as intended

Again I agree we are each entitled to Liberty

I too hope this reads well ... Cheers AP

Sweet see there ATS ain't so bad all the time. =p

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Punisher75

Of course Citizenship is a Human concept ... perhaps animal rights and welfare is what I should have said

How do you distinguish between life that's morally acceptable ( for the sake of the topic) to consume and that which is not?

This is a good question, however I think it would end up in an abortion debate. LOL

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

My personal choice which I do not wish to put on any other is this

I choose to not eat any animal flesh or animal products such as dairy ...
For me it is common sense that plants are not the same as animals though I respect all living things

What made me decide to eat this way is ...

When I was at school ... I had a Saturday job working for a Butcher ...
It was a trip to an Abattoir that disturb me enough to no longer want to eat meat.

Again this is my personal choice ... I knew I did not have it in me to kill another animal for food
Yet I have killed a couple of animals that were in great distress in the wild so to speak ... they were badly mutilated and in great pain so I dispatched them as quickly as I could to end their suffering

Another aspect of why I choose the diet I do is ... I believe it is healthier for me

I don't expect any to agree with me ... but I must admit it angers me to see any animal abused including people too

It is for each individually to choose what they wish to eat and I would never push my way on another but will explain why I eat what I eat if they are interested

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Sorry I've been late to the party - thought I'd throw my two cents in.

I rarely eat...years of focused meditations and learning to forgo the urges of the body have made such possible. I know this path isn't for everyone, make no mistake. But when I do eat I prefer fresh fruits 'n' veggies. Meat is a real treat. I've tried going pure Veggie/Vegan in the past and I daresay it was a little under two months before I found myself looking at my dearest neighbors as if they were little more than walking turkey legs. Mind you I was eating the blackest of beans and supplementing my protein with shakes, to no avail.

Had to pop on down to the corner store and grab some beef jerky before I done ripped into one of my dear friends due to a malnourished brain. That said....not every body/metabolism responds well to a pure veggie/vegan diet.

It's noble to want the lion to lay down with the lamb and all, but until we're in that state of grace where we don't need to eat to sustain our bodies and brains...pushing the matter ain't gonna persuade the die hard omnivores and carnivores much.

Sorry to break it down that way, but there it is.

a reply to: artistpoet

LOL its all cool I don't think anyone will get mad at ya for not eating meat. At least I wont.
I know there are some who don't eat meat for any number of reasons, ranging from "eww" to religious convictions, to some reasons that are medical.

I really don't care if someone eats meat or not, I have my preference, of course.
The only thing that kinda dorks me is when folks try to show me big brown cow eyes in attempt to anthropomorphize cattle in hopes of making me feel guilty.

A little Background if you care.
The reason its annoying to me is because when I was a kid growing up in Ohio my father, myself and my older brother used to spend the summer at the neighbors farm working. You know bailing hay, cleaning out the pig pens, mending fences etc. We did this for a cow to take to the butcher so we could eat the upcoming year. We also could shoot every Ground Hog on his property as well as well as our own to supplement the beef we got from our work on his farm.
We would go to Hueston Woods and Rush Run to gather raspberries and blackberries and freeze them for the winter months to have cobbler.
We did all of this because were poor... very very poor, and to our way of thinking this was a way to keep from going on welfare.

You see we were faced with a choice, we could either do something that was immoral in our opinion (stealing money from other people who paid taxes) or we could fend for ourselves.
So fast forward a few years and it seems that eating meat becomes a moral issue.
So now I am basically being told by some that the only moral thing for me to have done as a child was to either starve to death, or eat nothing but blackberry cobbler.
Now I don't know if you every ate blackberry cobbler 5 days a week, but while it is good for awhile, it really starts to get old after a few years. lol

a reply to: Punisher75

Thanks for your post and background info into your early life ... I do understand why you made the choices you did and respect that ... in the same situation I can not say I would have not done the same myself ...

I am an artist and am poor but happy to be at liberty to pursue my passion ...

My way of providing food is to grow it ... which I do ... all organic and of great variety
Also in my youth ... I and many friends lived fully self sufficient on a remote Island .. still miss those days

I am guessing that Cobbler is some sort of pie ... and yes though I love fruit pies I can see it would getting wearing to have that 5 days a week ...

Anyway respect ...

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: StopWhiningAboutIt

I am serious about civil liberties.

I do not doubt that but also for many Vegans the Liberty of other animals is also a serious matter

And when congress passes civil rights for meat Ill be right there with you, unfortunately the "we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal" portion will have to be revamped first....or talking cows, I would dig owning a talking cow.

a reply to: artistpoet

I choose to not eat any animal flesh or animal products such as dairy

No problem with that.

For me it is common sense that plants are not the same as animals though I respect all living things

For me it is common sense that life is life. It's one thing to say you respect all living things, but you obviously don't respect all life the same. Some life apparently merits protection while other life reaps the benefit of being consumed, but respectfully of course. Bottom line, what's the difference to you? Is it fur or wool or hair that merits protection? A face? Where do you draw the line?

For me it's common sense that food is food.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

For me it is common sense that life is life. It's one thing to say you respect all living things, but you obviously don't respect all life the same. Some life apparently merits protection while other life reaps the benefit of being consumed, but respectfully of course. Bottom line, what's the difference to you? Is it fur or wool or hair that merits protection? A face? Where do you draw the line?

For me it's common sense that food is food.

With respect and also again this is my own personal philosophy

The plants I grow are for food ... I respect them for that and help nurture their growth ... as well as allowing some to go to seed and collect that seed to grow more plants ... I know plants are alive but do not or can not believe they feel pain or pleasure but merely respond to stimulus ...

Animals are more akin to myself ... they are of my kind ... they have conscious thoughts as do I ...

I wonder if the plant people would think it was more or less moral to eat cloned plants.
You know like when you cut off a stem at the node and replant it?

So all beings have a right to life wether we decide they do or not.

Killing things is not to be considered a good thing, instead its bad, because it promoted suffering.

Even plants and animals have a right to life.
I would like to see our civilization come up with a way to survive without the killing of plant life as well.
To see yourself as above right and wrong isnt wisdom.

To seek a better way leads to a better way, however thinking your perfect in what your doing and saying wrong things arent wrong doesnt make them right.

Animals are killed in nature is it wrong for them to do so, no because there are no other methods for them to survive.
Humans have other methods which dont involve killing animals so we dont need to do it, it is only done out of want not need.
People have decided that the killing of animals is moral simply because they want to and animals taste good to them.

What gets me is people act as if they dont know right from wrong, and think whatever they do is good and just when it may be the opposite, which is bad and unjust.

a reply to: artistpoet

With respect

Respect? Save it. Don't think I've forgotten this

originally posted by: artistpoet
I find it ridiculous to compare an animal to a plant
Get real ...

Followed by your dig regarding "common sense".

Now you can "get real" by answering the question I asked you previously, Where do you draw the line? What non-plant life do you consider morally acceptable to kill?

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: artistpoet

With respect

Respect? Save it. Don't think I've forgotten this

originally posted by: artistpoet

I find it ridiculous to compare an animal to a plant

Get real ...

Followed by your dig regarding "common sense".



Now you can "get real" by answering the question I asked you previously, Where do you draw the line? What non-plant life do you consider morally acceptable to kill?

So do you believe that you are doing a moral and just thing by killing animals when you dont need to?
If so how can you state how it fits into morality?
Does morality go out the door when your stomache is concerned?

originally posted by: KnightLight
But vegetarians are fine.

boiled or roasted?
not my cup of tea either.

I think the problem with the discussion as it is going, is that there has to first be an agreed upon Standard of Objective Morality with which to hold ourselves to.
If we don't do that then all that will be spouted is going to be explanations of our opinions based our own subjective ideas.