Smoking Bans - Where will it end?

a reply to: ArMaP

ArMaP

I am so sorry that you have this terrible crippling disease. But at the end of the day, It simply is not my problem

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I most certainly do NOT approve of the drug war.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: DelMarvel

I don't suppose the police are enforcing laws against smuggling tobacco, the black market, the grey market, etc etc.

A man in New York just lost his life to the police for selling cigarettes one at time.

www.nydailynews.com...

If it looks like Prohibition, has all the negative effects of prohibition - then its probably Prohibition

Teen smoking is at an all time low, according to phone surveys and the sale of legal cigarettes - are you thinking that teens don't buy cigarettes on the black and grey market.

Sales of black and grey market tobacco are estimated in Ontario to now comprise 35 - 45 % of the legal market.

Its nice and makes you feel good to say the smoking rate is down but you have to add another at least 30 % of smokers to the ones you counted from legal sales

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

ooh this interesting

West Virginia looking to pass a bill that takes the power to implement smoking bans AWAY from the local health boards and give it to country commissioners so that they can soften the bans and make them for "flexible" to meet the needs of local communities.

Interesting

www.wtov9.com...

Updated: Friday, January 30 2015, 01:03 AM EST WHEELING, W. Va-- A proposed bill could give county commissioners in West Virginia control over their county's smoking regulations. It's a change welcomed by some smokers, but has health officials worried. Currently, West Virginia does not have a state wide smoking ban, instead, it's decided by the county and the county’s health department getting the final say. Now, a bill could bring changes and possibly some more leniency as to where smokers can light up. Not everyone is on board with these potential changes. It’s called the Elected Officials Accountability Act. If passed, it will give county commissioners the power to regulate smoking bans and ordinances within their county. "Local health boards, as it stands right now, have no elected oversight and they're able to pass laws such as county wide smoking bans without taking into different interests in the community. Every community's a little bit different,” said Hancock County Delegate Pat McGeehan Read More at: www.wtov9.com...

"Since the 90’s, when (bans were) put in place to control smoking and control exposure to second hand smoke, to hopefully reduce the number of smokers. It would be taking a step back,” said Gamble. Read More at: www.wtov9.com...

Yup - smoking bans will never, ever be overturned~

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

ooh this interesting

West Virginia looking to pass a bill that takes the power to implement smoking bans AWAY from the local health boards and give it to country commissioners so that they can soften the bans and make them for "flexible" to meet the needs of local communities.

Interesting

www.wtov9.com...

Updated: Friday, January 30 2015, 01:03 AM EST WHEELING, W. Va-- A proposed bill could give county commissioners in West Virginia control over their county's smoking regulations. It's a change welcomed by some smokers, but has health officials worried. Currently, West Virginia does not have a state wide smoking ban, instead, it's decided by the county and the county’s health department getting the final say. Now, a bill could bring changes and possibly some more leniency as to where smokers can light up. Not everyone is on board with these potential changes. It’s called the Elected Officials Accountability Act. If passed, it will give county commissioners the power to regulate smoking bans and ordinances within their county. "Local health boards, as it stands right now, have no elected oversight and they're able to pass laws such as county wide smoking bans without taking into different interests in the community. Every community's a little bit different,” said Hancock County Delegate Pat McGeehan Read More at: www.wtov9.com...

"Since the 90’s, when (bans were) put in place to control smoking and control exposure to second hand smoke, to hopefully reduce the number of smokers. It would be taking a step back,” said Gamble. Read More at: www.wtov9.com...

Yup - smoking bans will never, ever be overturned~

Tired of Control Freaks

Finally some movement, the health boards will do what their Big Pharmaceutical masters tell them. Because they have been bought long ago. We will have to watch out for dirty tricks now, because they are in deep now.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: ArMaP

ArMaP

I am so sorry that you have this terrible crippling disease. But at the end of the day, It simply is not my problem

Tired of Control Freaks

You've conceded that smoking triggers asthma for some people yet you still insist on the right to smoke wherever you want saying it's not your problem. And you accuse others of being self entitled.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: DelMarvel

I don't suppose the police are enforcing laws against smuggling tobacco, the black market, the grey market, etc etc.

A man in New York just lost his life to the police for selling cigarettes one at time.

www.nydailynews.com...

If it looks like Prohibition, has all the negative effects of prohibition - then its pòrobably Prohibition

Teen smoking is at an all time low, according to phone surveys and the sale of legal cigarettes - are you thinking that teens don't buy cigarettes on the black and grey market.

Sales of black and grey market tobacco are estimated in Ontario to now comprise 35 - 45 % of the legal market.

Its nice and makes you feel good to say the smoking rate is down but you have to add another at least 30 % of smokers to the ones you counted from legal sales

Tired of Control Freaks

Tobacco has been taxed and regulated by the government almost since it was introduced to Europeans four centuries ago. That's not prohibition. Alcohol is taxed and regulated by the government, too. Are you going to claim we have alcohol prohibition? You've been referring to it in the past tense.

Smoking rates are determined by surveys. They don't distinguish between taxed and black market cigarettes. That's a ridiculous argument.

a reply to: nightbringr
Newsflash dude, drinkers and smokers already pay way more taxes than people that don't in most provinces. So you are not stuck footing the bill. Beer and liquor costs more than double here than in the states. ~3/4 the cost of alcohol and smokes are taxes.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
ArMaP

I am so sorry that you have this terrible crippling disease. But at the end of the day, It simply is not my problem

Tired of Control Freaks

Exactly, in the same way banning cigarettes or even arresting smokers is not my problem, but I think it's wrong, so I will do what I can to prevent any stupid law like that, if it ever appears.
(In Portugal any group of people can sign a petition and present it to the parliament to make any issue discussed on parliament)

The fact that you don't care about the people that may be affected negatively by your actions doesn't surprise me and it was even predictable.

a reply to: DelMarvel

yes - tobacco and many many other products have been taxed throughout the century. The right of government to apply sin taxes is well establed.

But whenever the government chooses to tax a product at a rate that is higher than what the average man can afford to pay in order to financially punish him for choosing to use a desirable product, then the black market begins to rise.

Law enforcement is called in to enforce anti-smuggling and tax-avoidance laws and all of the bad effects of Prohibition start to kick in. You can call it by whatever name you want but, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, its a duck!

I believe that an excessive tax on tea (considered a luxury good) was the direct cause of the Boston Tea Party and the start of the American Revolution.

Further - please google the term Laffer Curve to see what the effects of excessive taxation are. Also google the term "Sin taxes" to see how people are starting to get very very irritable with the whole concept of using the tax system to manipulate and control people into complying with the edicts of Public Health.

Since it has already been admitted in this thread that complete Tobacco Prohibition is the endgame and truthfully, I already knew the prohibition was the endgame because it is being publically talked about

www.endgameconference2013.in...

obacco Control is also becoming integral to the agenda of sustainable development, adding urgency for attaining the WHA target and swiftly moving beyond that to eliminate tobacco use in all forms, by 2050, everywhere in the world.

It is really disingenous of you to deny that what is happening isn't Prohibition.

This isn't about asking smokers to be considerate of others and "taking it outside". The harrassment of smokers will not end until tobacco is completely eliminated.

You have been able to hide your true intentions by talking about "I don't want to control smokers and interfere in their personal lives" until the cows come home. Its all out in the open now Bans of smokers in an open air environment where non-smokers are free to move away are cropping up all over the place. The excuse is always health but the intention is always control and it always was!

You just thought that Prohibition would work if you went about it slowly this time, if you "properly educated" the public and prepared them for prohibition.

Prohibition isn't even possible unless the substance in question affects only a tiny minority of the public. You can only ban something if the substance in question is already unpopular. But 20 % of the population is not a "tiny" minority.

In the province of the Ontario, there are more smokers than there are people who voted for the Liberals and smokers are getting quite irate. What happens when some minority government party decided to court the smokers votes by promising to to roll back tobacco prohibition. What happens when smokers decide they are are fed up?

As in the UK - this one issue is sufficient to topple governments and rein in their excesses.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: DelMarvel

Are you seriously trying to contribute to this thread in any meaningful way, especially discussing Alcohol Prohibition without being aware that Alcohol and Tobacco were both prohibited in the 1920s

cocktails.about.com...

All about alcohol prohibition and the Volstead Act

This is modern day discussion of tobacco taxes in modern day.

taxfoundation.org...

As for knowing anything about the number of smokers who buy from the black market.....HA HA HA HA HA...that is a hearty laugh. The only thing the government knows about smokers is from the legitimate tobaco companies.

Besides - those surveys are good for only one thing. When the anti-smokers are making their annual plea for more funding, they publish surveys showing that the smoking rate (particularly in regard to youth) is going up at an "alarming rate"

But when they need to account for how the money is spent and if the people are getting value for money, then the entire anti-tobacco campaign is a complete success and the smoking rate is going down.

What is clear and indisputable is the rate at which smokers quit smoking fell dramatically when the smoking bans started really rolling across the nation and hasn't picked up speed since.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: DelMarvel

The "smokers want to smoke whereever they want" is another disingenious cliche.

I never said anything about smoking "everywhere". In this thread, we are specifically speaking about smoking in private homes and in general about smoking in privately-owned hospitality venues.

Yes - smoking can trigger asthma but only in a small minority of asthmatics. I have already listed all the big triggers with cockroach poop and dust mites coming in a 1 and 2.

If you had your way and eleminated tobacco from the world - asthmatics would still be asthmatics and would still have asthmatic attacks as I fully proved by referring what is happening to asthmatics in California (the anti-smoking capital of the world) where the rate of asthma is STILL rising and there are More asthma attacks than ever before.

As a smoker - there is nothing I can do to help asthmatics and allowing you to control my private home will harm me (and the whole rest of the population). What is next - no cooking hamburgers in a multi-residental building because it offends the vegans?

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

This is a link showing the percentage of smokers in the population of the United States from 1965 to 2009

www.lung.org...

Scoll down to Table 4

You will see that in 1965 the percentage of population that were daily smokers was 42.4 %.

For the next 40 years, the public health community worked on getting information to the public about the health effects of smoking. There was minor bans - transportation, public buildings, movie theatres, grocery stores etc Essentially any place the public HAD to go to transact the daily duties of life.

It worked. by 2000, the smoking rate had dropped to 23.3 %. That is a quit rate of about half

But during this entire period, anti-smokers had to be careful what they said because the tobacco companies were there to call them out if they lied.

With the advent of the Master Settlement Agreement in the United States - wherein tobbaco companies sold out their smoking customers and agreed to pay 25 Billion over 25 years in exchange for getting a guanteed market share. The tobacco companies then retired from the field and allowed the Anti-smokers to go nuts.

This is when the move to Prohibition really stated.

But from 2000 to 2009, the smoking rate only dropped from 23 % to 20.6 %. Despite spending billions on anti-smoking, the change in smoking rate dropped to a crawl. Worse, we know that the black market is now firmly established and there really is no accurate way of determining who is a smoker and who is not. People (especially teenagers) are not going to tell the truth to a government determined to harass and punish them.

It is quite likely that the smoking rate is on the way up again and that is why smoking bans are becomming a bigger and bigger issue with people showing up to tell public health off.

This is an exact duplicate of the what happened with Alcohol Prohibition. The drinking rate for alcohol was already low at about 20 % when the bans were introduced. Right after the bans, alcohol started rising in popularity until the drinkers had sufficient voting power to topple the government


You can only succeed in banning something when that thing is not popular in the first place. Had anti-smokers kept out of it, smoking rates would have continued to drop.

But prohibition is such a good money maker that those in control still can't help themselves.

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
As a smoker - there is nothing I can do to help asthmatics and allowing you to control my private home will harm me (and the whole rest of the population).

There's something you can do to help asthmatics (and other people), ask anyone close to you before lighting a cigarette if they have any problem with cigarette smoke.

a reply to: ArMaP

ArMap

I live in Ontario Canada. We have the most draconian smoking bans in the world. When I smoke, it is because I am located in either a designated smoking car, my private car and my private home.

If an asthmatic doesn't wish to be exposed to my smoke they need only to stay out of designated smoking (you would be amazed how many asthmatics walk their ignorant little assess into an OUTDOOR designated smoking area, start fake coughing and demand smokers stop smoking), stay of my private car

And if the smoke from apartment is bothering you, apply weather stripping to your door, apply caulk to any space you think smoke may be coming through (around baseboards, electrical sockets etc), turn on your own fans, and buy yourself an air cleaner.

I have no need to ask the people around me anything! They have need to respect the few designated smoking areas, my private car and my private home.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

You claim tobacco will be prohibited in the long game, and always talk about the power of big pharma and their long reaching arms, but fail to ever mention the power of big tobacco? You really think Phillip Morris is going to stand by and watch their product be deemed illegal?

And you claimed a couple posts up that tobacco was banned in the 1920's during alcohol prohibition, can you site that please because that is news to me.

*edit* in case you forgot what I am talking about

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: DelMarvel

Are you seriously trying to contribute to this thread in any meaningful way, especially discussing Alcohol Prohibition without being aware that Alcohol and Tobacco were both prohibited in the 1920s

Tired of Control Freaks

Tired of you making things up and announcing them as fact just because it fits your distorted world view.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
I have no need to ask the people around me anything! They have need to respect the few designated smoking areas, my private car and my private home.

If things are like that then what I said doesn't apply to where you live.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: ArMaP
And if the smoke from apartment is bothering you, apply weather stripping to your door, apply caulk to any space you think smoke may be coming through (around baseboards, electrical sockets etc), turn on your own fans, and buy yourself an air cleaner.

And assuming that would even solve the issue, why isn't it YOUR responsibility to seal the contaminants YOU are creating in YOUR apartment?

Typical of the selfish attitude you've been displaying.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: DelMarvel

Are you seriously trying to contribute to this thread in any meaningful way, especially discussing Alcohol Prohibition without being aware that Alcohol and Tobacco were both prohibited in the 1920s.
cocktails.about.com...

You have a link on that that isn't broken?

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: DelMarvel
If you had your way and eleminated tobacco from the world

Straw Man again. I’ve never said anything about wanting to eliminate tobacco from the world.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: DelMarvel
there really is no accurate way of determining who is a smoker and who is not….

It is quite likely that the smoking rate is on the way up again

So you're going to cite research on smoking rates when it suits your purposes but just make things up when it doesn't?

Here's what the research says:

LINK.
Cigarette smoking among American adults is at an all time low.

The percentage of smokers over the age of 18 dropped from 20.9% in 2005 to 17.8% in 2013, according to a new Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) report.

55% of Americans want to ban smoking completely.

Around 70% of all cigarette smokers want to kick the habit.

That leaves you with around 5 percent of Americans who actually want to smoke. I'm sure the figures for Canada are similar. Pretty slim pickings for your revolution.

You're in a small and shrinking minority and you're not going to garner much support with the attitude you have.

Again, I just hope you support ending the war on drugs...or else you're an incredible hypocrite, have no logical consistency, and just lose all credibility...

a reply to: TheJourney

Whether he he supports the war on drugs is irrelevant, he is a gigantic hypocrit. Claims someone telling him where he can or can't smoke is a nazi, then turns around and says we all have to live with the decisions he makes because he has the right to do what ever he wants regardless of who is affected and how. Honestly don't know why I even continue to post in this thread. I need a thump on the head.