Listen Muslims/Islam

a reply to: citizenx1

So, you want them to come up, knock on your door and tell you? Or did you even bother looking for signs that Muslims Around the World Condemn Charlie Hebedo Attacks? (Video at Link plus MANY comments by Muslim leaders and followers). What else do you want?

Muslims in France and around the world banded together on Wednesday to strongly condemn the deadliest terror attack the country has seen in the past two decades.
...
Muslim leaders and activists immediately denounced the terrorists actions, reiterating the verse in the Quran that tells Muslims when one kills just one innocent person, it is as if he has killed all of humanity.
...
“The UOIF condemns in the strongest terms this criminal attack, and these horrible murders. The UOIF expresses its deepest condolences to the families and all the employees of Charlie Weekly.”

While we're on the subject, why aren't all the men in the world coming out and condemning rape? If the lack of Muslims condemning terrorism means that most Muslims support it, can I assume that the lack of men condemning rape means that most men support it??? I mean, none have come up to my door and let me know about it...

originally posted by: citizenx1
All i've seen from the Islamic world are stories like these:

www.theguardian.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

rt.com...

Well, if you're reading right wing sites, you're going to get right wing news... (pssst.... the political right wants you to hate and distrust Muslims, because they are seen as a threat to Christianity.)

Ridiculousness!

a reply to: Exitt

Stop Asking Muslims to Condemn Terrorism. It's Bigoted and Islamophobic

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion.

This sort of thinking — blaming an entire group for the actions of a few individuals, assuming the worst about a person just because of their identity — is the very definition of bigotry. It is also, by the way, the very same logic that leads French non-Muslims, outraged by the Charlie Hebdo murders, to attack French mosques in hateful and misguided retaliation. And it's the same logic that led CNN host Don Lemon to ask Muslim-American human rights lawyer Arasalan Iftikhar if he supports ISIS, as if the simple fact of Iftikhar's religion — despite the fact that he is exactly the sort of liberal human rights activist whom ISIS hates most — made him suspect.

That's why.

a reply to: citizenx1
Yaaawwwnn .. no matter how you rephrase it its still the same old tired propaganda .. now be a good little slave and go tell youre masters not all of us in the world are buying their bull# regardless how they dress it up it still stinks like #... conversation over .

I actually think the muslim communities respond very well when these attacks happen. Compared to our (western publics) level of reaction to and condemnation of our governments role in oppressing the middle east for decades. What have we done as a community to stop that exactly? Not much at all. With our role in the middle east we are largely responsible for the rise of these terrorist groups, but we still want to blame the muslim community for "not doing enough to stop terrorism" while our own governments are doing more than enough to encourage it.

a reply to: Expat888

The funny thing is that you're apparently "all types of douche" for using your freedom of speech...
Irony comes to mind.

People are very selective in their daily lives.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: citizenx1
All i've seen from the Islamic world are stories like these:

www.theguardian.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

rt.com...


Well, if you're reading right wing sites, you're going to get right wing news... (pssst.... the political right wants you to hate and distrust Muslims, because they are seen as a threat to Christianity.)

Ridiculousness!

Umm, no

The Guardian - Clearly left wing media
Daily Mail - center, tabloid, bit of right
RT - not the right or left in the western discourse, but according to many ATSers blatant Russian propaganda.

Heres the problem with this thread.

If you are simply wanting to hate on muslims, no amount of actual fact about how moderate muslims oppose terrorism is going to make a damn bit of difference to you opinion, because you have already drunk the Kool Aid and made your mind up.

So to be perfectly honest, for those of us trying to correct this misconception it is like talking to a wall.

a reply to: neformore

If you are simply wanting to hate on muslims, no amount of actual fact about how moderate muslims appose terrorism is going to make a damn bit of difference to you opinion

The problem is that we can see thousands and thousands of not "so moderate" muslims in Pakistan burning French flags and effigies of French president Hollande. We don't want to hate them, but the opposite is true, unfortunately.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

The problem is more that no one is listening or noticing because they're so damn hyperfocused on what the news and the websites they visit want them to see and believe and so scared that they have lost all perspective.

Another reason they're not listening is because some people are invested in maintaining that atmosphere of fear and panic - and perpetuating this idea that it's all Muslims that are out to destroy our world. It has to be all Muslims - nothing short of that will do

My view on it for the moment is this-

Over here, people are being arrested for being apologists for the terrorists if they say anything close to opposing the actions of Charlie Hebdo.
I listened to the radio on the way to work and they were being quite aggressive about a bunch of junior High age kids that had voiced their opinion that there is some hypocrisy going on- that we don't hold huge protests and vigils when regular citizens are killed, in larger numbers, but only for a smaller number of journalists. Their point was that some lives are being considered as more important than others.

Now- that is being taken as being apologist for what the gunmen did. It is being loudly proclaimed that we must take action against such behavior, and swiftly, to nip it in the bud.

In my mind, the kids point was valid, and did not make any justification for what those gunmen did. But it is being taken that way.

Now, I can see that for moderate muslims, saying ANYTHING against the terrorists will be seen in the same sort of light by the other muslims! If they openly oppose the actions of those terrorists, then they will be accused of being "for" the offensive provocation that was done by Charlie Hebdo.

People are getting, on the whole, irrational, in their anger, on both sides. Just another one of those conflicts in which the pressure to choose sides is so immense, nobody can afford to take a middle ground. You can't even be against both actions.


Besides that, in France, the radicals are more numerous and better armed than the french authorities, so they have more power in many areas. They are a serious threat in the neighborhoods where there is the most muslims in general.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Another reason they're not listening is because some people are invested in maintaining that atmosphere of fear and panic - and perpetuating this idea that it's all Muslims that are out to destroy our world. It has to be all Muslims - nothing short of that do

I didn't said All muslims. In fact Pakistan police took some action against violent protesters. But you can't deny the impression that there was far more muslims in the muslim world condemning Charlie and not those who killed caricaturists.

originally posted by: neformore
Heres the problem with this thread.

If you are simply wanting to hate on muslims, no amount of actual fact about how moderate muslims appose terrorism is going to make a damn bit of difference to you opinion, because you have already drunk the Kool Aid and made your mind up.

So to be perfectly honest, for those of us trying to correct this misconception it is like talking to a wall.

OK, for starters, i will never, ever accept the phrase "hate on".

Next. No, I do not wish to "hate" muslims or anyone else. I would however like to go about my life without the fear of some nutcase with a grudge pulling out an AK and shooting everyone in sight.

Next, the examples people have cited in here are either ancient or very questionable/limited.

I note there have been a couple of comments saying "why should we say anything" - do or don't, that's up to you but i'm articulating the views of many people who've supported Islamic states and people against the western governments agendas in the past - its now time to stand up and be counted. Take it or leave it.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: citizenx1
All i've seen from the Islamic world are stories like these:

www.theguardian.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

rt.com...


Well, if you're reading right wing sites, you're going to get right wing news... (pssst.... the political right wants you to hate and distrust Muslims, because they are seen as a threat to Christianity.)

Ridiculousness!

Umm, no

The Guardian - Clearly left wing media
Daily Mail - center, tabloid, bit of right
RT - not the right or left in the western discourse, but according to many ATSers blatant Russian propaganda.

Yep, I intentionally selected a range so nobody could make a legitimate argument against the articles.

originally posted by: Bluesma
My view on it for the moment is this-

Over here, people are being arrested for being apologists for the terrorists if they say anything close to opposing the actions of Charlie Hebdo.
I listened to the radio on the way to work and they were being quite aggressive about a bunch of junior High age kids that had voiced their opinion that there is some hypocrisy going on- that we don't hold huge protests and vigils when regular citizens are killed, in larger numbers, but only for a smaller number of journalists. Their point was that some lives are being considered as more important than others.

Now- that is being taken as being apologist for what the gunmen did. It is being loudly proclaimed that we must take action against such behavior, and swiftly, to nip it in the bud.

In my mind, the kids point was valid, and did not make any justification for what those gunmen did. But it is being taken that way.

Now, I can see that for moderate muslims, saying ANYTHING against the terrorists will be seen in the same sort of light by the other muslims! If they openly oppose the actions of those terrorists, then they will be accused of being "for" the offensive provocation that was done by Charlie Hebdo.

People are getting, on the whole, irrational, in their anger, on both sides. Just another one of those conflicts in which the pressure to choose sides is so immense, nobody can afford to take a middle ground. You can't even be against both actions.


Besides that, in France, the radicals are more numerous and better armed than the french authorities, so they have more power in many areas. They are a serious threat in the neighborhoods where there is the most muslims in general.

So to conclude: they're winning, for the moment.

Governments are cracking down on the mainstream population (same is true in the UK with demands for new legislation and spying powers).

People in western Muslim communities are scared to speak for fear of attack.

None of this can end well.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

HERES a plan...www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org...

a reply to: citizenx1

its now time to stand up and be counted.

Or what, exactly?

Take it or leave it.

Many have condemned it, numerous times... I no longer will bow to these demands of forced apology & condemnation.
& it is forced, for there is the sentiment that if we don't we are lumped together, & that is justifiable to many...
Well no more!


So you take it or leave it.

originally posted by: citizenx1

So to conclude: they're winning, for the moment.

Governments are cracking down on the mainstream population (same is true in the UK with demands for new legislation and spying powers).

People in western Muslim communities are scared to speak for fear of attack.

None of this can end well.

Yes, that is what I think.
But I have come to the tentative conclusion long ago that the history of the world is just at another turn, where religion will head out in bloody conquest, as Christianity once did, and will be quite successful.
Now we're the pagans.
Probably, with time, the religion will diffuse somewhat as it spreads and is absorbed into other lands and peoples....
Perhaps even Christmas will become the birthdate of Mohammad, celebrated with trees, but decorated slightly different?
They'll become a bit less focused on martyrism and ego destruction in a few hundred years, as they get comfortable with their place of power, and we can restart scientific growth again, slowly..

But yeah. I think the next couple of generations are in for a tough period.

I hope I am wrong. But that's what I see.
we always like to look at history as a line, with a beginning and an end. (we're past that now)
I perceive it seems to be more of a spiral of repeating cycles....

a reply to: neformore

So to be perfectly honest, for those of us trying to correct this misconception it is like talking to a wall.

It is - but this is the situation we're stuck with - it's a media/real world DDoS

People believe Muslims are here to destroy the world and capture and enslave the west because people with sense - people that understand this is nonsense - can't be there to respond to every bit of smack that's being put out there

Propaganda works because it's relentless

I'm not sure what else can be done except to confront it head on - no matter how futile it feels. If our leaders make their decisions based on which way the wind is blowing - they will go with what works for them and simultaneously pleases the constituents that blow the loudest - and there is so much about this that really blows

It's seriously demoralizing - and it's not going to let up

Honestly, neformore - I am not much of a conspiracy theorist. My apologies to the makers of this site. But, between the real threats from terrorism, and the events and organizations that almost seem to be designed to keep the ball moving forward - well...

a reply to: kitzik

But you can't deny the impression that there was far more muslims in the muslim world condemning Charlie and not those who killed caricaturists.

Question the impression - do you have any idea how many Muslims there are in this world? How many individuals that really is - people, like you and me - that don't have the time or resources to dispel your negative impressions because they are busy just trying to live thir lives

Again - same as you and me

What have you done lately to bring peace into this world? Yes - I'm talking to you