Works are the bridge between love and faith.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

That didn't go over anything... You are the confused one as per usual

I said Faith Plus works...

Faith alone is nothing... but at the very least Work is assisting other people

It doesn't matter which comes first...

One without the other is NOT "The way"

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

How can you love the Light if you have not come to it yet? If you have not come to it through practicing good works then you do not know it. Once you do good works then you come to the Light and your deeds (works) are manifested as faith in the Son who is love (God) personified.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

You're twisting what is being said, deconstructing again.

Paul says that you don't have to do work to gain salvation then extends that "fact" to both the circumcised and uncircumcised, meaning no one has to work for salvation, only have faith in a sacrifice.

James says that you do have to work for salvation because without works faith is dead, Paul says that no one (whether circumcised or uncircumcised) has to work and that those without works (whether circumcised or uncircumcised) are justified by faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

The contradiction still stands.

I believe God Loves me, what work did I have to do? Nothing.
I believe that I am forgiven for my past sins, what work did I have to do? Nothing
I believe that the Holy Spirit is within all men, what work did I have to do? Nothing
I believe in the eternal light, what work did I have to do? Nothing

All of these concepts are stated plainly in scripture and their is no work or Law that you can do that will make you believe what you hear. I did not work to gain what I believe. My faith did and does lead to works which validates to you that I believe. But even if I sat around and did nothing all of the above would still be true, because I believe them to be true.

Works done in faith are righteous. Works done because you believe that you can earn God's Love are useless. Grace is a free gift so that none may boast.

If you try to tell people what work or ritual that they need to do to receive God's Love you will start a new religion based on the Law as you see fit. If you tell people that God's Love is unconditional and that they are called to do works in recognition of this love, you leave the works up to the one who is following the Light. And no one except the one who is in the Light, knows what the Light wants from them.

You cannot become Loved because of what you do. You become loved because you believed God Loves you.

The only contradiction, you will never understand Nirvana until your faith brings about the good works that God is calling you to perform. And since Nirvana is the only place that one can truly experience Grace, most people never actually find it. But it is possible to have faith in God's Love without ever truly experiencing it, and for the beginner this faith in God's Love is all they have to push them forward.

Anyone who has walked in the darkness knows when the Light comes to them, their is no substitute, and this is Grace. The one's born into the Light, like my daughter, may not feel the transition from darkness to Light but they have known Grace from childhood so they do not need anyone to teach them.

a reply to: sacgamer25

I believe that I am forgiven for my past sins, what work did I have to do? Nothing

IS forgiveness not a work of the heart? And Thus also a work of the spirit?

Perhaps you might want to read the lords prayer...

And how would one earn Gods love IF they are already loved... that is not the point of work

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That is not what Jesus said. He said:

1) Believe on the Son
2) Those who practice the truth love the Light.

They practice the truth because of what they are inside. Their works do not make them who they are, but is a reflection of who they are. These people believe because they seek the truth. They are saved by their faith and their works reflect it.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

And those who have no works also have nothing to reflect who they are...

Nothing but words... again, you only prove his point...

im sure he appreciates that

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sacgamer25

I believe that I am forgiven for my past sins, what work did I have to do? Nothing

IS forgiveness not a work of the heart? And Thus also a work of the spirit?
Perhaps you might want to read the lords prayer...
And how would one earn Gods love IF they are already loved... that is not the point of work

Forgiveness comes first from Christ on the Cross, and was granted even to those whose works were evil.

When you accept the forgiveness offered you are compelled to forgive. But the forgiveness on the cross comes to you by faith that he had the authority to forgive you. If you do not believe that you can be forgiven from your sins, than you will not feel the forgiveness even though you received it.

There is a difference between being forgiven and knowing you are forgiven.
There is a difference between being loved and knowing you are loved.
There is a difference between having Grace and feeling Grace.

The difference is faith, not works. Works are a sign that your faith is real.

If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, this is a sign that their faith may be weak or misguided.

But even the misguided who do no work believe that God Loves them. Shouldn't this alone be proof that salvation comes by faith and is followed by the works that your faith produces, and not the other way around?

a reply to: sacgamer25

If you do not forgive others then you will not be forgiven. Forgiving someone is an action (good work) not a belief or faith.

How can you gain grace (forgiveness) if you do not act and forgive others for doing wrong to you? Like Jesus said, in order to be forgiven (be given grace) you must first forgive others.

Love is automatic, forgiveness and thus grace is not according to Jesus. Grace is a pardon from God. How can you be pardoned if you do not pardon others first? Action (forgiveness) is required for grace to be given by God. Grace is not free, Paul lied.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Believing in the Son is doing what he says. How can you claim to believe in him if you ignore what he told us to do? How can you claim to have faith in him if you walk past him while he lies on the street hungry and cold?

No, good works are what bring you to the Light, just as John says. Once you are in the Light you believe in love because it is seen and not just heard.

originally posted by: sacgamer25

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sacgamer25

I believe that I am forgiven for my past sins, what work did I have to do? Nothing

IS forgiveness not a work of the heart? And Thus also a work of the spirit?
Perhaps you might want to read the lords prayer...
And how would one earn Gods love IF they are already loved... that is not the point of work

Forgiveness comes first from Christ on the Cross, and was granted even to those whose works were evil.

When you accept the forgiveness offered you are compelled to forgive. But the forgiveness on the cross comes to you by faith that he had the authority to forgive you. If you do not believe that you can be forgiven from your sins, than you will not feel the forgiveness even though you received it.

There is a difference between being forgiven and knowing you are forgiven.
There is a difference between being loved and knowing you are loved.

The difference is faith, not works. Works are a sign that your faith is real.

If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, this is a sign that their faith may be weak or misguided.

But even the misguided who do no work believe that God Loves them. Shouldn't this alone be proof that salvation comes by faith and is followed by the works that your faith produces, and not the other way around?

Forgiveness does not come by means of Blood... that is a lie that has been tossed around since Abraham and even before that time

Forgiveness comes from forgiveness... But first from repentance... which is a sign to God that shows you are worthy

And I have never said that Work should come first... I said Faith requires work, or it is not Faith....

Knowing God loves you is one thing... but does knowing that change the fact that HE does?

IF things in your life take a turn for the worst... Does that mean God does not love you?

The son of man has power to forgive sins... That means YOU and ME also can forgive those who have wronged us...

WE have that power...

Jesus asked God to forgive them that nailed him to that cross... HE did not do it himself, Nor was his death a means to forgive those who executed him...

Blood DOES NOT FORGIVE anything

a reply to: Akragon

Look, none of what Jesus said in John 3 has to do with salvation by works. John 3 is about Salvation by faith alone and predestination.

Faith

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Faith

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Salvation

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Predestination

18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Predestination

19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Those who believe are saved by their Faith, not works. Jesus did not say anything about being saved by works. He said those that had no faith are already judged.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

If you do not forgive others then you will not be forgiven. Forgiving someone is an action (good work) not a belief or faith.

How can you gain grace (forgiveness) if you do not act and forgive others for doing wrong to you? Like Jesus said, in order to be forgiven (be given grace) you must first forgive others.

Love is automatic, forgiveness and thus grace is not according to Jesus. Grace is a pardon from God. How can you be pardoned if you do not pardon others first? Action (forgiveness) is required for grace to be given by God. Grace is not free, Paul lied.

How can you do anything for God until you have faith that what you are doing is for God? How can I forgive others if I do not know Godly forgiveness which is one of the messages of Jesus on the cross. How can I show Godly Love if I don't understand it or have faith in it.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

Everything starts in your mind. Without faith the mind will not produce good works for God.

It is possible for the atheist to follow his conscious and thus follow Christ. But it will be impossible for the Atheist to Love and forgive like Christ if they have not known his Love and Forgiveness.

I think the real problem is today we take most of these concepts for granted. 2000 years ago they were killing each other over rituals. God's Love and Forgiveness was not such a SURE THING 2000 years ago. Men had no understanding of the Light. So the only way to Love and Forgive was to first have faith that this is what God wanted. God sent his son to die on the cross so that 2000 years ago men might believe in Grace for all and let go of the idea of ritual salvation.

The first act is to believe in what you hear. The second act is what you do with the message you heard. But faith always proceeds works, and faith is not dependent on works, it only stands as a barometer to the strength of your faith.

I actually believe the Lords Prayer, that someday earth will resemble heaven because all follow the Light. But you must have faith in the Lords Prayer before it can produce works in you.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Belief in love will not save you. Only faith that Jesus died for your sins will save you.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Faith means confidence or trust. How can you trust someone or put confidence in them until they have proven they are worthy of it through treating you well and doing good works?

Without good works there is no trust/confidence/faith. Again, faith is the end product of love and good works.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Oh lovely... Lets add St. Augustine and Calvin to the already confused doctrine... that helps people understand...

Look... You are confused... I'll show you, as I always do

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

How does one "lift up" the Son? Works... Faith is nothing but words... Work is evidence
----------------

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Right... And if you believe in him, you do as he asked of you... And that does not mean just sit back and say I believe.... HE said get off your ass and show the world you believe...
------------------

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him

Saved how?

By understanding what he taught his followers... which was how God wants us to live... Which means not just sitting around saying I believe in Jesus... I am saved... Nothing else is needed
---------------------

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Right... because those who ACTUALLY believe in him... Do as he asked
---------------------------

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Right... should be obvious to ANYONE who is reading this....

read it again... and again.... and again, until you get it...

Faith alone is nothing.... Faith alone is dead....

Faith alone is nothing but words...

Faith requires action or it does not exist... it is false... NOT TRUTH

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So why does Jesus tell us to keep his commandments in order to stay in he and his Father's love? His commandments say nothing about a sacrifice so I'm not sure where you're getting your information from other than Paul the deceiver.

a reply to: Akragon

See, thats not what Jesus said, at least not until you added your editorial comments to His words. Again, as always, you fail to see what is in front of you, and you twist the truth to suite your personal desires.

And again, Jesus defines who you are. You dont practice the truth, so you love the darkness to hide your true nature, you wolf in sheeps clothing. You have been judged already....you and your kind.

Ive proven my point.

Here, its for you.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I had faith in 2013 before reading most of the religious texts that I would be able to interpret them. I read the Koran in 4 days and understood about 95% of it without stopping to check the metaphors.

My faith came first, other than the words in the bible I had no reason to believe that I would be able to understand the texts. My faith is what lead me to do the work of reading the other texts.

The bible said that a person could pray for the gift of interpretation and receive it. Their was no way to know that I would receive the gift of interpretation but my faith lead me to my prayer.

Again my faith preceded my work in both cases. And if I did not have faith I would not have been compelled to do the work.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You only proved your hatred of me... and that is why I am continuing to reply to you instead of just ignoring your nonsense... I just decided to let you let it shine for all to see...

Everything I just said relies on understanding the message in the gospels...

You understand Pauls doctrine as I've showed you many times... thus you opt to believe his doctrine instead of Jesus

Even substituting Paul for Jesus by saying he wanted "faith alone" as a belief for his people...

Call me what you will... let your colours fly

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

No, what you DO defines who you are.

Or does a person who claims to love and believe in Jesus but does evil mean their belief in Jesus makes them a good person despite their actions?

Also, you calling Akragon a wolf in sheep's clothing is a judgement made on your part simply because he disagrees with you.

Matthew 7
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.