Works are the bridge between love and faith.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

More lies, as usual...

You compound your lies in front of everyone reading, then deny that you did anything wrong... and your works turn Jesus into a liar like yourself

Pathetic... You're not even worth the emote I usually use to end posts

James 2
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Who's right? Paul or James?

One says we are justified by works and not faith alone, the other says that we are justified by faith alone and apart from works.

ETA: An even better example:

Romans 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The one who does not work is sill justified by their faith in Jesus? James says the total opposite.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Is faith anything without works?

Jesus said that if you don't believe in him (have faith), then at least believe in the good works he performed so that you can come to understand who he is. Works are what show you have faith, faith does not show you have works, which is why James said faith without works is dead.

You just proved my point. Jesus' works revealed His essense. In a like manor, our works are to reflect our faith. Jesus wasnt the Messiah BECAUSE of His works. It was BECAUSE He was Messiah that He could prove it with His works.

a reply to: Akragon

You can keep your emoticons, their lame.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So why does Paul say we are justified by faith even if we don't have works (Romans 4:5)?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
You wont like this explanation, but its true.

Upon faith in Christ, the believer is in union with Christ. He is in us, and we compose His body. His priesthood is our priesthood. His blessings are ours. Through Him, we too become sons of God. His works are ours. That is the principle of the Bride of Christ. In the ancient world, the wife was considered a part of the husband, just as Eve was taken from Adam: Flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone.

In the communion, we drink the wine which represents the Blood of Christ cleansing our sins, and eat the bread, which represents His body in us...unity.

We are baptized in His death, and raised in His resurrection.

If all you had was faith, you would also have His works. I never raised the argument because we could never get beyond the issue of faith.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

James 2
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Who's right? Paul or James?

One says we are justified by works and not faith alone, the other says that we are justified by faith alone and apart from works.

This is confusing but I will try.

Paul is saying that you are justified by having faith in the perfect light. Many of the Jews at the time were self-righteous Zionist, as many still are today. Wealthy men who had nothing to suffer by following the law in it's entirety believed that they were better than the poorer men who had trouble adhering to all the laws.

Thus they claim that because they obeyed the Law and practiced the correct rituals that they were exalted above the congregation. This is why he says works of the law. These men were following the Law but they had no love for their brothers.

Justification comes from faith in God's Grace and the message to sacrifice the self for humanity. These men had faith in the law, but they did not believe that God's Love extended to the Gentiles, nor did they sacrifice anything for humanity. The Law does not teach a man to be righteous, but the works of the ones who sacrifice themselves for humanity is righteous.

Luke 18 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Mark 12 2 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."

The law says 10% but we find out that those who were wealthy were selling everything they had to give to the poor once they were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Tithing to the church is obeying the Law, and you may prove that you Love God by tithing. But Tithing does not give a man compassion for the poor, giving everything you have is the kind of compassion that Christ is looking for.

James 2
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do(giving all they had to the poor) and not by faith alone.

Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law (tithing).

These are 2 separate teachings that only appear contradictory. The act of tithing does not direct you to the Light, but faith in giving as a command from God may cause you to give all that you have which is righteous.

You cannot do things for the sole purpose of standing above your brothers and claim that you are righteous, which is what the self-righteous do. But if what you do comes from the heart then your act is righteous.

They are both correct, I hope this makes since.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So again you are saying that there is no such thing as dead faith. If what you say is true, a Christian can do as many bad things as they like but as long as they have faith in Jesus, his actions are considered theirs. So works are not needed.

James 2
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

If someone tells someone else who is starving to eat but does not provide them food, what good is it? According to your reasoning, it is perfectly good and James was blowing hot air. Why is it perfectly okay to just walk by without offering assistance? Because somehow having faith means what Jesus did applies to you, even though you didn't help them out.

Luke 10
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

If you just walk by someone without helping, you are not treating them as a neighbor and not loving them as yourself. If you do not treat them as a neighbor and love them as yourself, you have broken Jesus' greatest commandment. Jesus said to keep his commandments in order to remain in his love.

According to your reasoning, the priest and Levite were totally justified as long as they had faith.

Matthew 25
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

If you just walk by someone without helping, you walked by Jesus without helping him. But that's okay, you have faith in him and what he did you did, even though you did nothing at all.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I read your last reply in its entirety, and yes, that is exactly what Im saying.

If your faith in Christ is real, then you are SAVED. The only faith that is dead is faith that is not rested in Christ.

Now I can tell you from experience. About 9 years ago, I was that man who would deny people help. I would turn away from those in a bad situation. I was a rotten selfish person, and Im not proud to confess it. But, with that attitude came a price. Hatred raged within, which gave me terrible bleeding stomach ulcers. Depression took away all of my motivation. Addiction became my master, and every where I turned, my plans became frustrated. I came close to suicide. If I had died in that state, I would have still gone to heaven, but as a spiritual infant.

Thankfully, the constant grief in my heart brought me to repentance, and after years of rehabilitation in the Word of God, Ive finally come to understand the Law of Love, and how good works reflect faith.

You have to understand, that true Christians dont get away with being bad people. If they stay in that state they will die sin unto death, but salvation is based on who and what Christ is, not who and what you are. This is why we are taught to forgive others just as God continues to forgive us.

So I understand why disagree with me, but you need to understand that I know from experience. Ive learned these lessons single handedly and the toughest way possible.

You cannot offer God anything but faith. Before you can produce acceptable work you must first be born again.

a reply to: sacgamer25

I fail to see how tithing or putting all your money in a treasury has anything to do with loving your neighbor as yourself. Putting money in a bank or giving money to the church is not the same as treating others as yourself.

I think you missed my edit.

Romans 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul says faith without works is perfectly okay, James says it isn't and so does Jesus.

I think you're using a form of deconstructionism, putting meaning into words instead of reading them for what they are. Tithing has nothing to do with good works because it is fueling the beast (church) and James was not specifically talking about giving money to the poor, he meant good works in general.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So walking by someone without helping them is all good as long as you have faith in Jesus? What do you make of this then?

Matthew 25
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

If you walk by someone without helping them, you are walking by Jesus without helping him. How can you claim to have faith in Jesus and love him if you simply walk by him while he's laying on the street starving? If you don't help Jesus, you have broken his greatest commandment.

But if that twisted logic helps you to ease the dissonance, go for it.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

All I can say is that people of faith do good works from their faith, not to make faith. When I was first saved, I did help others. It wasnt until my teen years that I began to harden my heart.

But you cant get by without faith, and if you work without faith, you're wasting your time.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

There is no faith without good works (dead faith), so I agree that working without faith is pointless because that means they are evil works and not good. You shouldn't do good works to make faith, you should do good works because you love your neighbor, faith is what is produced when you love your neighbor and do good to them.

Why does someone gain faith in humanity when a good act is witnessed? Because it is the product of good works. I can't make it any clearer than that. If that person didn't witness that good act, would they have gained any faith in humanity? No, because there is nothing to base that faith on.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

I fail to see how tithing or putting all your money in a treasury has anything to do with loving your neighbor as yourself. Putting money in a bank or giving money to the church is not the same as treating others as yourself.

I think you missed my edit.

Romans 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul says faith without works is perfectly okay, James says it isn't and so does Jesus.

I think you're using a form of deconstructionism, putting meaning into words instead of reading them for what they are. Tithing has nothing to do with good works because it is fueling the beast (church) and James was not specifically talking about giving money to the poor, he meant good works in general.

This passage is about having faith in God apart from the Law of Circumcision. Paul is trying to teach others that Circumcision was not necessary, to the Jews this was blaspheme.

Does following the law of water baptism do anything for you? Don't many Christians obey this law and then speak of their self-righteousness yet keep on sinning? Paul is preaching against ritual salvation.

You have to separate the Laws and Rituals that have spiritual significance from the works that help your brother. Tithing, Circumcision, Water Baptism, do not themselves offer any salvation. If you put your faith in the ritual you become self-righteous. The one who puts their faith in the Light, and does not have faith in ritual salvation is credited as righteousness.

Buddha didn't preach anything about performing rituals, but you must have faith in the Nobel path if you are to find the Light. His faith in the Light apart from rituals proves that he is a son of Abraham, who believed in God apart from performing a ritual. He performed the ritual only after he had already proven his faith by what he was doing for God.

Honestly most of Paul's message is directed against those who teach ritual salvation as the path to God's Love. Paul is not discrediting that works are a statement of faith, and he only shows that the Law is not proof of anything righteous.

Galatians 3 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

If you approach righteousness through the law, without recognizing the spirit within, you become bound to the law, and those who keep the law are above those who do not. Most people don't obey God's law out of Love but rather out of fear of punishment. The law brings fear of punishment and self-righteousness.

When your mind is focused on the Light within, the law no longer has power over you. The Galatians were following the Light but somehow had been convinced to accept ritual salvation. Anyone who is in the Light understands the significance of the rituals, but also understands that the one who performs the rituals will find no value in them unless their heart believes in the spiritual significance of the Ritual.

Man cannot be justified by works according to the law. Man can only be justified by having faith in the perfect Light that stands behind the law. Faith in the perfect light leads you to do works for the light, that is if your faith is real and not dead. But faith in the light does not lead to self-righteous rituals.

You could probably post several more examples where Paul is condemning those who believe in Ritual Salvation as the only truth. Each one is in the same context, each time he is telling people to put no faith in the Rituals and rather place all of their faith with the Light Within them.

This is not a contradiction, it is a separate message designed for a completely different audience. When taken in context to what Paul is preaching it is easy to see why he is so adamant that a man cannot work to obtain God's Love.

Rather the work that they do is only a measure of their faith in God's Love, not a statement to how much God Loves them.

Again this teaching is against Zionism through ritual only.

a reply to: sacgamer25

You're twisting what is being said, deconstructing again.

Paul says that you don't have to do work to gain salvation then extends that "fact" to both the circumcised and uncircumcised, meaning no one has to work for salvation, only have faith in a sacrifice.

James says that you do have to work for salvation because without works faith is dead, Paul says that no one (whether circumcised or uncircumcised) has to work and that those without works (whether circumcised or uncircumcised) are justified by faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

The contradiction still stands.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

This is how Christ defined faith.

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Jesus is the Light. Those who believe have a love for the Light and go to it so that their deeds "may be manifested having been wrought in God".

So, in an equation:

Love for Light + Knowledge of Salvation = Salvation by Faith, who's works are a manifestation wrought in God.

Jesus makes it clear that works will not cut it. You must have faith in the Son, who is the Light. If you have no faith in Christ, then you do not love the Light.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You should read what you post before you post it... You just proved his point...

“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

He who practices truth comes to the light... Practicing something is more then just faith, there is action required...

SO that his DEEDS may be manifested, meaning brought forward, as having been wrought in God...

Faith + works = Salvation

Faith + Nothing = NOTHIING

Faith = Salvation does not fly because IF one has Faith in Jesus, They do as he asks

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

"He who practices the truth comes to the Light", this means that DOING is what brings you to the light which in turn brings belief in the Son who is love personified. If you PRACTICE truth you put it into action and when you put it into action you come to know love which is God. How can you know love if you never witness it or put it into action yourself?

John 15
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

To keep his commands is to DO them. If you DO what he says, which is love others and God, you will remain in his love. Can those who remain in his love be condemned?

So no, Jesus does not make it clear that works don't cut it.

a reply to: Akragon

Glad I'm not the only one who caught that.

Great minds think alike.

a reply to: Akragon

Dude, No! That just went way over your head. Jesus said to have faith in Him...that those who have faith in Him do good works from their faith BECAUSE THEY FIRST LOVED THE LIGHT. Faith saves you, and therefore your works are manifested as from God.

Faith first, then works.