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Works are the bridge between love and faith.

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posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:02 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

So you believe Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for sins to be forgiven? What differentiates you from the typical Christian then?

Paul is that false Christ that you say I am calling on. I don't call on Paul, I stay away from him.


Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



Luke 6
46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


How do you reconcile Paul's words with Jesus' in this case?




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:09 PM
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a reply to: Akragon



Works are required for salvation according to his words... Or else everything he taught in his ministry was a waste of time... He taught Faith plus works...
Not Faith alone... that is pauls words


Actually the teaching is for the enlightened, so that they may know who is in the Light and who is not in the Light, so that they may not be lead away by false teachers.

Faith is what leads to works, if a man claims to have faith but has no works his faith is dead, and he is lying to himself.

The one's who are in the light should be able to understand that faith leads to works, so when they encounter a man who claims to have faith but no works they can lead him back to the straight path of faith that includes acting on your faith.
edit on 12-1-2015 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

Im sorry but faith does not lead to works... What is in a man/womans heart leads to works...

it has nothing to do with faith...

A person will do good works and not have any belief in Jesus or God... that person will do so because it is right to do so...

That person has been given that by God regardless of their belief or lack there of....

On the opposite side of this, there are MANY who fully believe in God and Jesus, yet will gladly turn their backs on people in need... You can see this throughout the church world as evidence... and it can not be argued

Faith is a gift from God, and a wonderful thing... but Faith without works is not Faith

Its nothing more then following a crowd...

Bottom line.... Faith that has no works is nothing but words




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

"Faith leads to works"... no it doesn't (typical Christian response). If it did then there would be no such thing as dead faith and James epistle is a pointless form of rhetoric.

If faith leads to good works then what does someone with no faith draw their good works from?

What is faith exactly? Is it believing in Jesus' sacrifice? If so, all Christians are saved and all Christians perform good works all the time.

We both know tha isn't true though.

So what exactly differentiates you from a typical Christian? Because you are parroting their usual arguments right now.

edit on 1/12/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

So you believe Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for sins to be forgiven? What differentiates you from the typical Christian then?

Paul is that false Christ that you say I am calling on. I don't call on Paul, I stay away from him.


Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



Luke 6
46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


How do you reconcile Paul's words with Jesus' in this case?


I suppose Jesus Christ could have taught enlightenment any number of ways. He said that it was his fathers will that he sacrifice his life to teach us about self-sacrifice that leads to brotherly love. Since he claimed it was his fathers will to die on the cross in order to teach us how to overcome sin, then he had to die on the cross to forgive our sins and point us to the Holy Spirit who is within.

Paul was writing letters to the Enlightened ones who understood who Jesus was, and understood what his name means. Their have been many men named Jesus, and their have been many false teachers who teach a false Jesus.

One must call on the correct Jesus in order to be saved by him. If you understand that Paul's letters were written to those who understood that Christ Jesus was the Holy Spirit. If you call on the perfect name, that can lead you to perfection, than you will be saved from your sin.

If you call on a false Jesus, then you remain in your sin.

The scriptures teach us not to accept any teaching that is contrary to the sound teaching of Jesus Christ. The OT proclaims the Christ will take away a man's sins but they do not believe in this Christ. Therefore, they call to a false Christ, created by false teachers and they are not saved from their sins.

Now they are reconciled, are their any more questions that you have about Paul's teaching? I can answer all of your questions leaving no contradictions.
edit on 12-1-2015 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:28 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

The Christ spoken of in the OT has not come yet...

So how is it that they call on a false Christ when according to them, he has yet to appear?




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

"Faith leads to works"... no it doesn't (typical Christian response). If it did then there would be no such thing as dead faith and James epistle is a pointless form of rhetoric.

If faith leads to good works then what does someone with no faith draw their good works from?

What is faith exactly? Is it believing in Jesus' sacrifice? If so, all Christians are saved and all Christians perform good works all the time.

We both know tha isn't true though.

So what exactly differentiates you from a typical Christian? Because you are parroting their usual arguments right now.


Dead faith is only a term used for the one's who claim to have faith but they do not have faith. What other term would you like to use for the one who thinks they believe the truth, but have believed in lies and thus are without works?

Dead faith = No faith



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

Dead does not mean non-existent...

sigh... man you're making up your own rules here




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

The contradiction still remains.

It doesn't matter who he was writing to (yet another typical Christian response), he was apostle to the Gentiles so his epistles are directed at non-believers more than those who already believed.

His epistles are for those who do not understand already (Gentiles), so those who don't understand yet will assume saying Jesus is Lord is enough according to Paul.

Jesus was also here for Gentiles (and Jews) yet his words are opposed to Paul's.

Jesus was speaking to the same audience as Paul, yet his words are different.
edit on 1/12/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 05:38 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

And what determines who has real faith? Works.

We've come full-circle once again. Works lead to (determine) true faith not vice versa.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sacgamer25

The Christ spoken of in the OT has not come yet...

So how is it that they call on a false Christ when according to them, he has yet to appear?



That is not true. The OT claims that Christ will come, die, be resurrected. Then it claims that another will come in the name of Christ to teach the world.

Yahweh and Jesus are both called Lord and their is only one Lord.



Psalms 2 Psalm 2

1 Why do the nations gather together? Why do their people devise useless plots?
2 Kings take their stands. Rulers make plans together against Yahweh (Jesus) and against his Mashiach by saying,
3 “Let’s break apart their chains and shake off their ropes.”
4 The one enthroned in heaven laughs. Adonay makes fun of them.
5 Then he speaks to them in his anger. In his burning anger he terrifies them by saying,
6 “I have installed my own king on Zion, my holy mountain.”


Yahweh is Jesus so who is Yahweh's Messiah. We know the father appointed Christ King but who is the Messiah that is sent by Yahweh(Jesus Christ)

The message to the 7 churches also claims that Christ will give the kingdom over to another.

Revelation: The message to the seven churches.


“The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my (Christ's) right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.”
“(1) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (2) He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (3)To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna (Plato). I will also give him a white stone with a new name(Odysseus) written on it, known only to him who receives it. (4) To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter (The interpretaion); he will dash them to pieces like pottery. Just as I have received authority from my Father, I will also give him the morning star (Holy Spirit). (5) He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. (6) Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God (Love) and the name of the city of my God (Heaven within), the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name (Holy Spirit). (7) To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


Plato makes the same prediction, Christ will come and the one after him will be the one who enlightens all men.


“Plato Complete Works” – The Character Socrates claims divine inspiration that comes from a book. Who does Plato relate to as the One God? Cratylus 405b Apollo – “the purifying god who washes away such evil impurities and releases us from them” 405C “The Washer”, 405d “Apollo is the god who directs the harmony, and makes all things move together”

Republic X Plato is predicting prophets to come, but he places emphases on the 20th prophet that chose the life of a lion (Christ in the OT).

“620b The twentieth soul chooses the life of a lion, This was the soul of Ajax, son of Telamon. He avoided human life because he remembered the judgment about the armor.” Note 14 - “Ajax is a great Homeric hero. He thought that he deserved to be awarded the armor of the dead Achilles, but instead it went to Odysseus.” (What Plato is predicting is the lion who would avoid human life (Sin) Christ, who is the Spirit of Israel that would come, and that all would think the kingdom would become his, but the kingdom would actually come later by Odysseus, who is one that would be lead into sin by his daemon/flesh. I am that sinner who Plato called Odysseus.



Mark 11 22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain (Religion), ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea(Congregation),’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.


Jesus said the one who would come would do greater things than he did. I will reconcile all religions and in doing so I will show clearly that the Light is within. When the world accepts the interpretations the mountain will throw itself into the sea.

Christ who is the Light is the mountain and the congregation who is the sea will follow the Light. Religion will be in the hands of those who follow the light, needing no one but the Light to guide them.

3 different prophecies from 3 different writers, One message, One Spirit, One Light.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

1. Jesus is not Yahweh...

2. Yahweh is not God... He/she/it is a tribal god which is either a fabrication of man, or a false God

3. Jesus didn't say the name Yahweh... Didn't use it once, He called God "the Father"... Thus Jesus is not Yahweh's Messiah even though he was named appropriately according to some...

4. Revelation is a waste of time... And was rejected by the early church until sometime after the forth century

5. The jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah... and the OT is comprised of their books... they aren't Christian material, feel free to believe they are, but that simply isn't reality...

And before you tell me that the jews are blind and that's why they don't accept him.... No, they don't accept him because he did not fulfill all the prophecies that the Jewish messiah was supposed to

And he was a really bad Jew anyways... he was born into the religion but did not adhere to it...


edit on 12-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:09 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

And what determines who has real faith? Works.

We've come full-circle once again. Works lead to (determine) true faith not vice versa.


Why can you not understand that the only ones who have works also have faith. This teaching is only for the enlightened. If a man who is not enlightened tries to make since of it, they will teach the church message of ritual salvation.

Anyone without works does not have faith.

But works or not God still Loves(Grace) you. Do you live in the (Grace)Love of God or in the fear of God when you break the commandments? It is possible to be loved without living according to Love. If I can love my child who does wrong and receives my punishment, then certainly God's Love is at least as big as mine.

You can be loved and not feel it, this is not a contradiction.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

Why can you not understand that those with no faith at all can still do good works? An atheist who volunteers at the local homeless shelter is doing a good thing yet they do not have faith in any God or ideology.

That's one of the worst things you could have come back with and highlights your total misunderstanding of what Jesus said. You do NOT need faith in a sacrifice to do good to others. Are all atheists unable to help their fellow man? Are you really saying that and being serious?

Wow. I've starred all your posts so far but that doesn't deserve one. Total ignorance. No disrespect brother, I just have a hard time seeing how you could possibly believe what you just said.
edit on 1/12/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:16 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25
Excellent post, thank you!



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

LMAO...I love you just authoritatively declare,"You are WRONG."

No, Im not wrong, nor am I twisting anything. I posted the passage you referenced, in its context, and deflated your argument. The passage is about recognizing false prophets. What do prophets do? They profess, that is their fruit.

If someone professes a "truth" that is contrary to Jesus' teaching, its bad fruit.

By your logic, anyone having a bad day, or a bad few years is a dispicable person. Ive been a believer since the age of 12. I went through many changes, but my struggle with my negativity did not define me. By your logic, it would.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:43 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You mean like this one?


Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Paul says that declaring and believing that Jesus is the Lord alone will save you.

What were Jesus' teachings?


Luke 6
46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.



It's amazing how Christians so easily forget things that contradict their beliefs.
edit on 1/12/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:46 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: sacgamer25

Why can you not understand that those with no faith at all can still do good works? An atheist who volunteers at the local homeless shelter is doing a good thing yet they do not have faith in any God or ideology.

That's one of the worst things you could have come back with and highlights your total misunderstanding of what Jesus said. You do NOT need faith in a sacrifice to do good to others. Are all atheists unable to help their fellow man? Are you really saying that and being serious?

Wow. I've starred all your posts so far but that doesn't deserve one. Total ignorance. No disrespect brother, I just have a hard time seeing how you could possibly believe what you just said.


It is possible that more atheist believe in Christ then those who claim to be Christians. The moral code that most atheist believe evolved is to do no harm to others. If an atheist listens to their conscious, they follow the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is the good voice in our heads.

The problem with Atheists psychology and divine psychology. Atheist believe the moral code evolved and that it is simply a part of them. Divine psychology teaches that the eternal voice is perfect and if you follow it you will be perfected. The one who believes in the divine will find perfection, but the atheist might not.

The atheist has faith that doing good results in good. The religious have faith that doing good results in good. Plato lays out a perfect case for following the eternal voice of wisdom, without focusing on it being divine.


Romans 2 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


A gentile is anyone who does not believe in the Light. As you can see clearly by this passage some that don't believe in the Light follow the requirements of Love because they are written on their hearts.

It is possible for anyone to do good. I never claimed it was impossible for someone to do what is right without having faith in the church. The atheist who gives his time to help others has faith that what he is doing is right. Their are also many atheist, our leaders, who only live to satisfy themselves because that is what they believe in.

Again, many atheist follow the divine law better than those who claim the law is divine. The atheist has God's Grace also, and because they have his Grace they too feel the warmth of Love inside of them when they do good. They may never know Nirvana, which is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but they can understand that man must evolve to a more loving society and do their part to get us their.

edit on 12-1-2015 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:57 PM
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a reply to: sacgamer25

No, atheists do not have more faith in Jesus than Christians, the idea is preposterous. If faith is believing Jesus died for our sins and atheists don't believe that but Christians do, who has more faith in that sacrifice? Those who believe in it or those who don't?

Your argument is becoming more and more irrational.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 06:58 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Im glad you find me amusing... and you are WRONG that's why I said it with authority, as I will show you

Lets see...


The passage is about recognizing false prophets. What do prophets do? They profess, that is their fruit.


Prophets do not profess... that's not even the right base of the word...

A professor "professes"... that is a teacher...

A prophet Prophecies... That is to see what is to come...


If someone professes a "truth" that is contrary to Jesus' teaching, its bad fruit.


that at least is correct...


By your logic, anyone having a bad day, or a bad few years is a dispicable person.


No that is your logic, I said nothing of the sort...

A bad tree can not bear good fruit... IF said person is having a bad day, or a bad few years, that is not an excuse to turn their back on others and let selfishness consume them... IF they do... Yes they are a despicable person... but that does not mean they can not change their ways...

What they can do is use something like "I was having a bad day, year, month" as an excuse to be selfish because deep down that is exactly what they are...


Ive been a believer since the age of 12. I went through many changes, but my struggle with my negativity did not define me. By your logic, it would.


Again... Don't twist your lack of understanding with logic...

IF you struggled with these things that is fine... IF you choose to turn your back on those in need, you willingly choose to be selfish... but again, that does not mean you can not or have not changed since you struggled with these issues...

Read the entire chapter of Matthew 7... Yes he was talking about false prophets as well, but it is a general rule...

Know them by their fruits... One who follows Jesus will do as he asks...

One who follows Paul will do as he asks...

Paul requires nothing but belief, which is the majority of the Christian world... The wide Path

Jesus REQUIRES work to go with your faith... the Narrow path


edit on 12-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



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