Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Think of it like your sacrifice is an apology, but the apology is only accepted if you are truly apologetic - you must be apologetic/mercy.

Understand?

I like that!

a reply to: windword

That's the problem with religion though. People always pick out the parts they want to hear.
People don't sit down and comprehend what is said in the bible or anything really for that matter.

What I find with most Christians I have met is that they believe in the superstitious stories that are told amounst others. They know the basics of the different stories but dont know the details as they don't read the bible or own one.

I am an atheist, and a couple months ago I had to go on a road trip for work to install some furnaces up in northern BC. I got to talking about religion and marijuana ( I know eh? It was a weird subject haha) with one of the contractors while working he asked what my beliefs are, I very politley said that I am an atheist. He replied with "oh your a non believer" I said to an extent yes as I have no proof either way except basically here say. He replied saying " well I personally find it hard to believe that we were created by nothing for no purpose. I believe the teachings of god and the bible. How do you explane morality then if you don't believe?". I said its simple I have a conscience, I know what's wrong, I know how I would like to be treated and that's how I treat others. He said "fair enough" I replied with, using acouple of examples from the first section of the bible," if you believe in the bible how come you believe that marjuanna is bad? Didn't god say that every green plant was put here for man? Also why are we not living to be hundreds of years old like Adam and his children? Why is it that our average life expectency is around 80 years?"

His answer was "really? Hundreds of years old?" I said yes.

He had never read the beginning of the bible or didn't comprehend it. And this is a guy who calls him self a fundalmentalist christian.

Personally its the little things like that, that made me an atheist. I don't hate Christians or religious people at all I just think if your going to call your self christian then you should know the bible inside and out and not just be a cultural christian who doesn't know what happens in the beginning.

Sorry I'm going off topic.

Back to the issue at hand. People nit pick anything. To expect everyone to understand the truth is fruitless. Its a losing battle that you won't win because people are lazy.

AGAIN IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE I HAVE PERSONALLY MET AND KNOWN IN REAL LIFE. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY TRYING TO GENERALISE ALL CHRISTIANS AS BEING LIKE THIS, SO PLEASE DONT ATTACK ME FOR SAYING SO.

Have a good one

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Jesus taught to forgive as you have been forgiven by God.

By your own words, "Jesus taught to forgive as you have been forgiven by God.", implies that we have been forgiven by God already. But, that's not he is said to have said.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It's pretty clear what he's saying here: i"If you do not forgive men their sins, your Father WILL NOT forgive your sins."

Jesus came to pay the dept for our sins so that God could forgive us

Nope. God can only forgive us AFTER we've forgiven someone else, according to Jesus' words.

And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.

You cant forgive a debt until you are first out of debt, and sin puts us all in debt over our heads. Without Christ, there is no forgivness, just monopoly money.

There is no debt hanging over our heads. "Salvation" isn't a monetary deal.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Here is a biblical perspective on what it means to be poor in spirit, that might help to clear things up.

To be poor in spirit is to recognize your utter spiritual bankruptcy before God. It is understanding that you have absolutely nothing of worth to offer God. Being poor in spirit is admitting that, because of your sin, you are completely destitute spiritually and can do nothing to deliver yourself from your dire situation. Jesus is saying that, no matter your status in life, you must recognize your spiritual poverty before you can come to God in faith to receive the salvation He offers.
Read More

The sermon on the mount can be summed up with Complete Surrender.

a reply to: randyvs

Me too! God is so awesome. The way he thinks and works... wow!

originally posted by: windword
According to one of the most basic of the teachings of Jesus, our sins are forgiven upon the "act" of forgiving the sins we perceive people are committing against us.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Jesus reaffirms this promise in "The Lord's Prayer":

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.

There is a certain Christian teaching that disregards this mandate, and claims that Jesus had to die in order for you to be forgiven. And even then, they add that you must BELIEVE that your sins are ONLY forgiven through Jesus' death and blood shed, or your sins won't be forgiven at all, even though Jesus went through all that trouble, FOR "YOU"! (Ungrateful Heathen)

More contradictory teachings from the doctrine of these Christians goes on to claim that if your sins are not forgiven, you will be sorted like wheat from chaff, and your worthless essence will be burned away. Some insist that even that's not the end, and that God will award your soul to Satan to torture for eternity. All this because God, supposedly, can't be in the presence of your "sin" of non-belief.

Jesus teaches us something different in his Sermon on the Mount:

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Who could be poorer in spirit than those who have no faith and do not believe?

The "True" message of salvation that Jesus' teachings impart is that our "sin" is forgiven by "God" ONLY when others' sin is forgiven by us. It's really simple.

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Excellent post and point!


Just a thought I had reading your OP...



What if Rome did hijack Christianity. There is little doubt that it was Romans who decided what the final version of the bible would looked like. What if the crusifixtion wasn't a sacrifice to save us for on our sins, but was romes way of justifying Jesus's death. Rome didn't like the way they were the bad guy in a religion that had taken hold on the Roman Empire. So instead of saying "we murdered one of the few chosen of god to walk the earth". They said " we couldn't help it! We had to murder Jesus... To save you all! It was his idea...really."

I hope that's not confusing, lol!

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: windword

Windword if I know you for anything it's for taking
scripture completely away from it's context. And your total
disbelief in the existence of Christ any way. So WTF are you
proving by being a hypocritical ass ?

Indeed. She's such a heathen. Oh wait...

a reply to: cody599

I read it.

The symbolism of the cross has to do with celestial solar worship, astrotheology. The death of the sun, actually, is allegory for one event in the life of the "Journey of the Fool", God's son roaming and claiming his/her inheritance, The Kingdom of God, Heaven.

a reply to: windword
Have you been watching the Pharmacratic Inquisition?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Think of it like your sacrifice is an apology, but the apology is only accepted if you are truly apologetic - you must be apologetic/mercy.

What sacrifice?
Apologetic to whom? God or the person that you've hurt?

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

Forgive and you will be forgive. Cut and dry!

The how does 'Jesus dying on the cross actually save sins' premise i ask of every devout xian I know. This includes my mom, my dear friend who is a priest, friends etc and I never ask it to get into an Argument but to see if anyone can actually answer the question without the reasonings of faith to support their answer. I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
Jesus dying on the cross to save sins premise i asked of every devout xian and I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

Can you rephrase that Zazz? I don't understand your question.

a reply to: Klassified

Never heard of the "Pharmacratic Inquisition" until just now. I googled it. Looks interesting! Thanks!

a reply to: windword

winword is out of context "again". According to winword, I guess Jesus didn't have to die for our sins. I guess Romans 4:25, Romans 5:8, 2Cor 5:21, Gal 1:4, Hebrews 9:22, 28, 1 Peter 2:24, 1 Peter 3:18, and 1 John 2:2 doesn't apply anymore?

a reply to: windword

To whom? To all - to all in all. You must become love - a child of God.

a reply to: texastig

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or someone else?

Matthew 26:28 - "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Fixed! Am in car typing a reply to: Klassified

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: windword

To whom? To all - to all in all. You must become love - a child of God.

I should apologize to all, for what, talking back to my mom, or not being the best person that I can be? Why? If I've done something that harms someone else, I owe that person and everyone affected an apology, not the whole world.

What does my "becoming love" have to do with Jesus dying to forgive sin?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Klassified

Never heard of the "Pharmacratic Inquisition" until just now. I googled it. Looks interesting! Thanks!

There's a documentary version, and a lecture version. If you have time for both, I highly recommend it. If only one of them, then go for the lecture. Definitely get back to me afterward. I'd love to hear your thoughts.