Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

a reply to: windword

Just to clarify - Jesus was sacrificed on the cross and he is the last sacrifice that will be accepted by his father and through this sacrifice all who believe in him and in his resurrection will be saved.

EDIT LATER: Jesus is known as the sacrificial lamb in the bible. This is why we ask God to forgive us our sins in Jesus name. His sacrifice and repentance of our sins and we are forgiven. So many can not release the guilt behind their forgiven sins and sometimes live with their past sins their whole life ..... never realizing their sins were forgiven a long time ago.

I thought this should be brought out first and foremost.

What you said about forgiveness of our sins is correct and if we don't forgive those who have committed sins against us then our sins will remain ...... opening up ourselves to the wrath of God and without protection from heaven against all negativity (evil). Law of attraction - Sin brings sickness into your life - it also brings bad luck (not a word I normally use - I use it to illustrate my point), hardships, family problems, addictions, etc into your life.

Forgiving someone who has done you wrong is very hard and sometimes it takes a long time but if you pray to God and ask him to humble you and to show you the way to forgive (so and so) he will show you.

Forgiving someone who has done you wrong does not mean to forget what that individual did and it does not mean that you must let them back into your life.

It truly takes love to forgive.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

I don't believe our humanity is something evil, sinful or something to be apologized for or overcome. So I don't see the need for universal salvation that requires our creator to die for us, AND for us to believe it for it take a hold.

I thought Jesus did not die but was murdered because he posed a threat to the religious leaders and government of his time.
He had become far too popular amongst the common people.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

It truly takes love to forgive.

It takes empathy to forgive. I can even forgive those that I don't love, like my ex, because I know how hard I can to be live with. Live and let go.

See how that works?

a reply to: windword

I have never looked up the meaning of Messiah in Hebrew until now.

Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎; mashiah, moshiah, mashiach, or moshiach, "anointed [one]") is a term used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, although not a Hebrew, is referred to as "God's mashiach" in the Bible.

Interesting that in Hebrew the phrase is used for many people and not just one soul. I especially find the phrase anointed [one] very informative. Makes me think of Elohim.

elohim: God, god
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God

divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:6 (De Che Br; but angels ᵐ5 ᵑ6 ᵑ7 Ew; God, RV and most moderns) Genesis 1:27 (if with Philo ᵑ7 Jerome De Che we interpret נעשה as God's consultation with angels; compare Job 38:7).

Micha EL, Gabri EL, Rapha EL, Uri EL, Sama EL, Jophi EL.

a reply to: windword

What if it's really simple?

What if you are born into this life, suffer the human condition, to be tempted with sins, exposed to evil and evil influences and all that life can be, good and bad. All strictly to determine your place in the afterlife?

I think that Jesus understood and taught that He and we are all of the Creator ... Thus to harm another is to harm oneself

a reply to: windword

You have misinterpreted my meaning.

If I give a poor man money - charity - it does not mean that I love him. It is an act of love.

If someone tells a lie about me - I forgive that person out of an act of brotherly love.

Do you understand?

a reply to: windword

EveryBody wants to go to Heaven but noBody wants to die, leads to "Religion™ is for folks afraid of Hell, 'Spirituality' is for folks who've already been..." The Great Sioux Nation.

Now what about those of Us who are in 'skin-suits' that don't use a "Rule Book"? How about ALL the Souls prior to Jesus, where do they get to go? If You eliminate the Church™ then You eliminate the yelling at the 4 year old "JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS!!!!!" What sins a 4 y.o. could commit is way beyond the grasp of this "common passerby". This leads to the school of thought that We are born with sin, well, who says this? The same guy that wants You to join TheChurch™ and be very giving come the time when the 'plate' gets passed. Hunab Ku is FREE!!!

"You ARE the Church™"---- Jesus The Chris† So why go somewhere I AM already present? And look at all the $$$ I saved!!!

namaste

P.S. "Love Your work" Cyrus the Virus..

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
The how does 'Jesus dying on the cross actually save sins' premise i ask of every devout xian I know. This includes my mom, my dear friend who is a priest, friends etc and I never ask it to get into an Argument but to see if anyone can actually answer the question without the reasonings of faith to support their answer. I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

What do you mean by "reasonings of faith"? If you mean an explanation that requires no faith. There isn't one.
Most Xtians don't know how to answer the question biblically, because they don't understand it themselves. Those that have taken the time to understand the "biblical" or "doctrinal" explanation, find it very hard to explain in detail. Google "substitutionary atonement" for an overview of "how". Though it is a very basic explanation, it will at least give you an idea of what many(not all) Xtians believe in regards to this topic.

I would have to write an essay for you, to explain it properly. Something I wouldn't even try on a forum. I will say, if you are truly interested. Do some reading on the Holy of Holies, and the Temple Veil, and how it relates to Christ. Here's a short article as a very basic intro... Holy of Holies and the Veil In a manner of speaking, Christ became the Veil in Xtian theology.

It's a simple, yet convoluted topic, to try and explain. But that should give you some clues. But it still revolves around faith. There is no other way.

a reply to: ausername

He kept his faith through it all, and prayed for forgiveness for his captors, his murderers, and for everyone else.

Well that depends on which gospel you read in the NT.

Luke's gospel claims:

Jesus is speaking on the way to be crucified says kind words to the crying women he passes, while being nailed to the cross he prays father forgive them they know not what they do. While he is hanging on the cross he has an intelligent conversation with one of the robbers beside him. One robber mocks him and the other robber tells that robber to be quite because Jesus hadn't done anything to deserve that. He then turned to jesus and says lord remember me when you come into your kingdom and jesus tells him truly today you will be with me in paradise.

Just before he dies he says "Father into your hands I commend my spirit" He then dies.


Mark's gospel claims:

Jesus doesn't say a word when he is being led to the place of crucifixion and while he is being crucified he remains silent even as he is being mocked by the Jewish leaders, passers by, and he is mocked by "both robbers" on either side of him.

He only speaks to say "my god my god why have you forsaken me" he then dies.

Those are two gospels of the NT that completely contradict each other. In Luke's gospel jesus is in control knows what is coming and where he will be. In Mark he is portrayed to be in doubt.


So like I said it depends on which story you read. At least you have choices right.

originally posted by: ausername
a reply to: windword

What if it's really simple?

What if you are born into this life, suffer the human condition, to be tempted with sins, exposed to evil and evil influences and all that life can be, good and bad. All strictly to determine your place in the afterlife?

Well, as I recently posted in another thread, I believe in reincarnation. I see it/life on Earth kinda like an enrollment in a cosmic college. We're working to attain certain, pre-selected, knowledge, to get a degree to move forward in our chosen paths.

a reply to: windword

Really, we're talking two different languages.

You need to become spiritually minded and familiarize yourself with spirits, with their purposes, and with their wills/desires. You need to see the spirits.

The reason I say that is because the answer you need is a spiritual answer, but without spiritual mindedness, you will not understand the purpose of all this -- because it is the very spirit of Truth which shows the answers to the true purpose of all these things you are denying, and without sight of that spirit... you won't see it in the light, because the light only leads to the awareness of the spirit.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: windword

You have misinterpreted my meaning.

If I give a poor man money - charity - it does not mean that I love him. It is an act of love.

If someone tells a lie about me - I forgive that person out of an act of brotherly love.

Do you understand?

What's to understand? You say forgiveness is borne out of love, I say it comes from empathy. Empathy comes from self love, an understanding what it feels like to be on the other end.

"Do unto others as YOU would have other do unto YOU." Self evident self love expressed through empathy.

a reply to: windword

Have You read "The Tibetan Book Of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche? It has a section dealing with what to focus on at the time of "death/crossing over" so as not to get 'stuck'.

a reply to: windword

Believe what you will, but I'm quite certain you are born into this world only one time. Born innocent, empty, and everything after that forms your true identity, and determines where you will spend eternity.

It is how you create your own destiny in life that ultimately matters most.

Everything else is strictly a matter of faith and, beliefs you have cultivated on your own, or have been programmed to believe.

a reply to: texastig

Matthew 29
9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”

First of all Matthew is wrong on who he is quoting. He says Jeremiah but it is actually Zechariah who he is quoting. That's strange within itself.

Secondly, the scripture is taken out of context. The passage the scripture is within isn't even talking about Jesus, it's talking about the "Lord" not saving anyone and raising up a shepherd that doesn't care about the lost or young. God commanded Zexhariah to throw his silver at the potter, not whoever bought the potters field after Jesus' death.

Zechariah 11
5 Then the Lord said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.

That doesn't sound like Jesus at all to me, more like the opposite. This is directly after the quoted scripture in Matthew.

I think it's pretty obvious it was taken out of context. Now, what do you think Jesus meant by forgiving others to be forgiven? Was he wrong? If not, no sacrifice is needed, only humility.

a reply to: windword

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It is not as if you somehow lived in a situation where no one ever sinned against you for you to forgive them of, you would be doomed to Hell since you lost the mechanism to have your sins forgiven.

I think the idea is more like if you do not forgive, do not expect forgiveness.

Think of Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song, if you go through life with the policy of giving no quarter, you know not to bother, in the end, to ask for quarter.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You need to become spiritually minded and familiarize yourself with spirits, with their purposes, and with their wills/desires. You need to see the spirits.

I believe that we're all spiritual beings having a physical experience. I believe, in life, the spirit is wedded to the body, 'til death do we part.

I believe demons are the images of our own projections of self hatred, insecurities, fear of rejection and neglect, that can be combated with acceptance and love.

I don't believe in empirical "good and evil". I don't believe that God is, and thus are we, at war with factions that rebelled against God in "heaven" and now have it out for us.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: windword

You have misinterpreted my meaning.

If I give a poor man money - charity - it does not mean that I love him. It is an act of love.

If someone tells a lie about me - I forgive that person out of an act of brotherly love.

Do you understand?

What's to understand? You say forgiveness is borne out of love, I say it comes from empathy. Empathy comes from self love, an understanding what it feels like to be on the other end.

"Do unto others as YOU would have other do unto YOU." Self evident self love expressed through empathy.

To me it is on meta level the same just at different degrees.

Empathy is trying to put yourself in the other people shoes thinking of the other ones well being and caring about it. Love is connection with another soul that can be on different levels but at the highest two souls become as one new whole (sometimes called oneness). Then we have the empaths that sometimes have a hard time knowing if their feelings are their own or others souls since they are too aware of what happens around them internalizing external information.