Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

a reply to: windword

We're in one body together, if you put wickedness into the body, it will corrupt the body.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

If we're all in one body, then there's a lot of stuff other than pure love in that body.

originally posted by: cody599
a reply to: windword

I'm the last member you'd call religious

Take time to read this

Then take time to think.

Cody

Wow! That was quite a read, and it also lead to another thread of hers, which ended up being the hardest thing on ATS I've ever read.

Anyway.....

Yeah somehow I don't believe Winword actually read the one you linked.

a reply to: Wookiep

Yeah somehow I don't believe Winword actually read the one you linked.

Why? What does OpinionatedB's dream and her take on Christianity have to do with me or the OP?

a reply to: windword

What does OpinionatedB's dream and her take on Christianity have to do with me or the OP?

It pretty much has everything to do with your OP. I don't doubt that it doesn't have much to do with you though. Sorry about that!

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
The how does 'Jesus dying on the cross actually save sins' premise i ask of every devout xian I know. This includes my mom, my dear friend who is a priest, friends etc and I never ask it to get into an Argument but to see if anyone can actually answer the question without the reasonings of faith to support their answer. I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

I think the problem with such questions is twofold. Most Christians have no interest in the mechanics of things. There is little to no actual effort being put into understanding how God does what he does. I think for answers like that, science seems more active (albeit increasingly dogmatic itself).

The other issue is that if his act of sacrifice actually impacted sins, it would be done through processes we would struggle to understand, much less explain.

So, most Christians aren't interested in details. The ones that do explore such things will be limited by current understanding just as much as anyone else . If something like sin, or karma, is real and has an actual impact on the physical universe.. We have a ways to go before we can directly explore it. And that's if it exists in the way is thought.

a reply to: windword

Well put, it really is as simple as this. If Jesus planned on dying for sins then he wouldn't have taught some of the things he taught while alive.

One thing though, the verse about the poor in spirit being blessed. Jesus defends the poor on a few occasions, he also calls out those who are rich. I think what that particular verse means is that the poor are blessed in the spirit while the rich are not blessed.

That doesn't take anything away from the rest of your post though. S&F

a reply to: Wookiep

It pretty much has everything to do with your OP.

It has everything to do with the reason WHY I wrote the OP.

a reply to: windword

Not way more, just one more: the lie, the anti-truth, the antichrist; which is why we need to be cleansed, because it has corrupted the truth - the body. And the lie is that unjust good/love is still just good/love, and the truth/body/Son shows it.

Instead of this back and forth, what is it exactly that you're seeing? What is your spirit saying? Can you translate it? Why do you think I am wrong? Why do you feel like you need to argue?

Cut and dry, it is not. Otherwise he would have not said go and learn. Actually, most of what Jesus said was spiritual, and not cut and dry, because he does not speak of himself - he speaks of Father and Father to the awareness of the Spirit.

The literalism or letterism is wrong. How many parables do you need in order to see that the parables themselves are meant to show you that the light is meant to lead you to a more spiritual understanding? Jesus to Father and to the Spirit.

Just as it is in these posts: we give our words/images/bodies to one another so as to reproduce our awareness [of our spirits] in one another -- and our spirits are of what we love - what we think and feel is good.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: texastig

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or someone else?

Yes, I believe in what Jesus says and His Apostles. You are "always" taking the Bible out of context.
Let's throw in another verse from Jesus Himself. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that "He gave His only begotten Son". That whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

originally posted by: Kromlech
Matthew 26:28 - "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Excellent Kromlech !!!

The modern meaning of the word forgiveness is pardoned of guilt.However that is not what is written in the new testimony Greek(aphesis) or what Yahosha said .Forgiveness means freed from bondage.It is foolish to think “pardoning” someone of something they have been guilty of is “righteous”(correct).The context of which Yahoshua is using “freed from bondage” is something completely different.

In the practical sense he is not saying pardon them of their guilt he is saying do not let what THEY do cause you to be held captive in bondage of their actions or they become yours.For example if someone borrows some money and doesn’t pay you back you can either resent them for the rest of your life and never lend anyone else money or you can be freed from the bondage of what that person did and write it off as a loss and/or sue them.

You don’t pardon them of their guilt(you can’t do that anyways they ARE guilty)….if you are ethical sound you don’t condone what they did and encourage others to lend them money. Yahoshua is saying ..it must be let go(freed from bondage) because it is their prison not yours and if you don’t let it go you are in prison with them even though you are not guilty of their crime.

It’s absolutely absurd to believe unless you pardon others of their guilt you won’t be pardoned of your guilt.That is not intellectually honest.You are not truly pardoning the other person you are only doing it to get pardoned.It's a convoluted ethical mess typical of religion.They have not even sought the truth pass their nose to realize “forgiving” someone of guilt is completely unethical ..not to say impossible.

Christianity is built upon the completely flawed premise that by “God” sacrificing themselves it pays a debt for the guilt of others…and it is only if you “believe” you have been forgiven are you forgiven.This makes no common sense.Ironically it focuses on punitive punishment of a moral and ethical dilemma and it solves nothing and is not ethical or moral.Yahoshua was murdered by evil religious men because religious men hate truth that exposes their lies.It was inevitable they were going to murder Yahoshua.He is the son/seed of the creator God.The guy with the biggest mouth railing against and exposing the central sin of mankind…religion.

Yahoshua gave no quarter to any kind of religion.One of his main purposes is to free mankind from their religion yet billions believe he started a new one!!The irony of it all. Yahoshua clearly stated none would understand what he said so he spoke in parables to blind them and he was correct ..no one understood him but thought they did(and do!)

The mass of mankind missed everything he said and did.Billions of people that “believe” in Jesus believe he “died as a”blood sacrifice” to “forgive their sins which is the most heinous form of pagan religion!!Yet they celebrate it.They scream and lust for his blood.They want to be bathed in his blood to wash them clean of their GUILT!!..and they believe this is “normal” and good….why because their religion” (and their bible) tells them so which is completely devoid of truth.

Can they see the perversion they believe in ..no…why..because they have not been “forgiven”.They have held onto their religion (sin) (and cram it down others throat) .Their religion is a disease that grows virulently and makes people “captive” starting with themselves.

The truth Yahoshua spoke was.. If you are not forgiven(freed from the bondage of their religion) you cannot free others from their religion.The order of forgiveness is understood backwards.The creator God first forgives you (frees you from the bondage of your religion) THEN you can forgive others (do unto others…)by preaching(stated by proclamation) the Good News… you WILL be freed.Yahoshua was making statements of “truth” not teaching methods of religion. Yahoshuas proclamation statements(preaching) is based in reason not religious methodology.

This is one of the cornerstone principles Yahoshua proclaimed that is not understood because of what he was proclaiming.Religion is sin(missing the mark of maturity) all of mankind are religious because it is their nature and character (their name).Yahoshua came to “crucify” religion (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) not “to be” crucified by it.The truth is backwards to mans religion.

The physical death of the son/seed of the creator God sowed a seed into the physical realm/universe.That was the purpose of his death.It was inevitable to be carried out by evil men of religion then be worshiped in ignorance by others.Inthe long run it doesn’t matter what man does in ignorance…all that matters is the good deed was done by Yahoshua.

The seed of Life ..Yahoshua (which means the creator God is deliverance/salvation) has been sown.All of mankind will be delivered(freed from bondage) from Hades (the realm of death and imperception…which is their religion).That’s the Good News ..however salvation/deliverance is a process not an event.Most of mankind will not be forgiven in this age(realm) because they will hold onto their religion however the seed has been sown and it will grow 30, 60 and 100 fold into the tree of Life.Forgiveness(freedom from bondage) is good.

a reply to: texastig

To be fair, the NT takes OT quotes out of context in order to support Jesus as being the Messiah.

I don't the particular verse about forgiving others is being taken out of context because it is its own context.

What do you think it means? What did Jesus mean by forgiving others to be forgiven? If you forgive others does that mean you are also forgiven or not?

a reply to: windword

And might I add that the «False Messiah Sacrifice Doctrine» is the religion of the Beast. If there was any benefit from the crucifixion, then it would be that it helped sorting all the fools under one roof and identifying the players John the Scribe mentions that dance along with the world as it turns and spins from aeon to aeon.

S&F

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: texastig

To be fair, the NT takes OT quotes out of context in order to support Jesus as being the Messiah.

The burden of proof for that is on you.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You are arguing from the point of view that "Original Sin" is a truth, and that we are born with wickedness in our hearts. I don't agree with this at all. I think we're all born good, with the desire to thrive and be loved.

It's human nature to want to clear the air and apologize after harming someone. Repentance is healthy.

Holding a grudge is also a part of human nature. It's a vicious cycle. In the Bible, Jesus taught that God forgives those who forgive others. No need for sacrifice or blood, but just a healthy dose of human empathy is all that's needed to save humanity from itself.

"Jesus didn't die"

Right, he was brutally tortured, beaten and forced to drag his own cross to his crucifixion. Something that would have broken the human spirit to live in most people long before his death.

He kept his faith through it all, and prayed for forgiveness for his captors, his murderers, and for everyone else.

Regardless of what you believe or not, there is much inspiration in his story of life and death in this world, aside from all of the biblical interpretations.

If he really was the son of God, and God really his father, it is amazing that he didn't destroy this world completely for the way his son was murdered.

Maybe that is how we were "saved" and forgiven?

I do not believe that this meant that you can be perpetually sinful, and always be forgiven.

Judgement is universal, no one is exempt. You can't be a horrible, sinful human in this life, and expect to be absolved of all sins because Jesus died for your sins. It just doesn't work that way.

Say 10 hail Marys and its all good for now.

From my point of view:

I do not like the doctrine about another soul being dying to automatically clean up another souls mess (karma/sin) since it makes the people following it less attentive to clean up their act.

All souls screw up sometimes but for me the mature souls take responsibility and fix what they have broken when they realised they have something to fix.

From my point of view: Jesus taught how not to screw up and told people to follow his example. The whole saying Jesus have died for my sins and I am clean and do not have to take responsibility for my past actions is not following Jesus example.

But then from my point of view Paul is the first Anti Christos (knowledge of anointment) who remade Jesus message in his own image. Like a Pharisees who lock people out of the kingdom of heaven with his false counsel.

a reply to: Rex282

Excellent post! Thank you!

The truth Yahoshua spoke was.. If you are not forgiven(freed from the bondage of their religion) you cannot free others from their religion.The order of forgiveness is understood backwards.The creator God first forgives you (frees you from the bondage of your religion) THEN you can forgive others (do unto others…)by preaching(stated by proclamation) the Good News… you WILL be freed.Yahoshua was making statements of “truth” not teaching methods of religion. Yahoshuas proclamation statements(preaching) is based in reason not religious methodology.

Exactly!

a reply to: texastig

originally posted by: Kromlech
Matthew 26:28 - "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

originally posted by: Texastig
Excellent Kromlech !!!

This is an example of such "Religious Methodology" that has nothing to do with the teacher's teachings. If Jesus even said that, it was in the company of 12, while his teachings were meant for the multitudes and taught in public. A cup of wine is merely symbolism of his life force, and a final toast to HIS last meal, knowing he was heading to his death.

Perhaps, the remission of sins were his own.

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

a reply to: windword

Original Sin implies that we are born with evil spirits because we inherited them. I don't think that's accurate. I think it is better said that we are evil spirits because we are the spirits' of men, and the spirits' of men are evil from their youth, and is something that we must overcome.

Genesis 8:21

I do not blame my parents for anything, and I do not think God does either.

Ezekiel 18:20

What original sin should instead be thought of is that we inherent corrupted flesh because of the parents, not corrupted spirits.