Saved by grace thru faith alone: What is a work?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If you base your salvation on water baptism and transubstanciation, then you have substituted the grace of God with your own work's. It is not the act of taking the Eucharist that saves you, it is the faith behind the symbol...the faith that the Blood of Christ has made you clean, and that you now in union with His body. Nor does water baptism save you, but the understanding that you are baptized in His death, and are reborn a new creature.

Precisely. Very well said.

I have a belief that i believe alone and that is that jesus is the first born over all creation. Meaning he is always the spirit connected to the flesh of the first from a mothers womb. So this belief of mine also is in line withe sacrificing of first born animals as a gift when that was being done and that eating first born animals is healthier than the rest. That would include the first crops picked in the year too.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Interesting ideas, but don't forget that "firstborn" is a "Hebraism". A figure of speech unique to Jewish culture and the Hebrew language. "Firstborn" means "greatest born".

For example, David was also called "firstborn", yet he was the youngest son of Jesse.

a reply to: Ignatian

Simple question. Why did they leave? He asked them to eat his body, drink his blood, in his memory. And it freaked them out. Why won't you believe?

Could it be that they were freaked out because they took His statements literally?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The idea comes to me from certain visions i have had so it is not easily dismissed by me. The idea that he can only showup as being the first born does not seem correct either so jessies son could have been attached to Jesus in a manner that goes beyond the rest of our connection to Jesus as always being there for us. If that were the case then calling david firstborn would have pointed those in the know to david being bonded greatly to Jesus.

You know what i do to counter this thought i have? i just ask the Holy Spirit to help me choose the meats at the store that will be best for my health.

I do strongly believe that what we eat is tied to spirits and that is a doorway for them to enter us and cause for spiritual clensing and renewal.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I'm not condemning you for anything, just pointing out that "firstborn" is a Hebraism in that language. It doesn't necessarily mean "first in chronological order", it can, but it also means "greatest born" as in the example of David. He certainly was the greatest born son of Jesse. And Jesus certainly, without question was the greatest born of all mankind.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Could it be that they were freaked out because they took His statements literally?

Indeed, the gospels are full of instances where people misunderstood Jesus' words. Just look at Nicodemus, 'Shall I re-enter my mother's womb to be born again?'

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Could it be that they were freaked out because they took His statements literally?

Indeed, the gospels are full of instances where people misunderstood Jesus' words. Just look at Nicodemus, 'Shall I re-enter my mother's womb to be born again?'

Precisely. The problem wasn't with what Jesus said, it was that they didn't have ears to hear.

They quite often misunderstood his teachings, and when they did He corrected them or told a parable to set them in the right mind. Why not in this instance? He even observes that they were freaking out on the statement, And watched them walk away. He didn't correct himself because He said what He meant, and meant what He said. Their worldly, secular minds wanted to symbolize it, or call it cannibalism, Just as today.

"He broke the bread, said the blessing, This Is My Body......."

"Do this in memory of me". Do what?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

a reply to: NOTurTypical




Faith in Jesus Christ without helping your fellow man is luke-warm faith and I think we all know how Jesus feels about luke-warm faith.


What if the person is a "babe in Christ"? What if the person is going through a period where they are not in the fold with the 99 and have wandered off? Is Jesus just the Author of our faith or the Author AND Finisher of our faith?

The answer is simple, James isn't talking about the method of salvation, but the evidence of it. James wasn't addressed to non-believers, but Christians. It's a letter of exhortation.

This is an easy answer, if you are a babe in Christ then why would works be an issue yet. We must grow in christ first, refining ourselves, working on our inner temple. Then after you are right with God then true works can take place. God has a time and place for everything in his timeframe. Humans rush everything. In the bible it talks about growing in spirit in stages, i.e. drinking milk then moving to meat. God dosen't expect babes in christ to be out their eating meat and do works before they even truly knew the Lord. This is human mistake and why many christians get burned out trying to do works when they were never ready yet to begin with. Hope this helps.

a reply to: BlessedLore

This is an easy answer, if you are a babe in Christ then why would works be an issue yet.

It's not an issue to the believer, it's an issue for people running around judging them for maybe not being as sanctified yet as a person who has been in the faith for much longer. That was my point.

And James isn't talking about justification to God, that's Romans. James is talking about our justification towards man. The evidence of our saving faith. The evidence others should see in the life and actions of a true believer.

a reply to: Ignatian

You're wrong, He didn't tell parables to enlighten people or to explain Himself better, He told parables to hide His message. So only the children of faith could understand. He had no interest in explaining Himself more clearly to the lost by way of parables. He spoke in parables so people would hear and NOT understand.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” ~ Mark 4:10-13

"Do this in memory of me". Do what?

Break bread and sip wine. The broken bread reminds us of His broken body, the wine reminds us of His shed blood. No different than in the OT the Passover observance pointing forward in time to the cross.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

a reply to: BlessedLore




This is an easy answer, if you are a babe in Christ then why would works be an issue yet.


"It's not an issue to the believer, it's an issue for people running around judging them for maybe not being as sanctified yet as a person who has been in the faith for much longer. That was my point."

Okay, I can see the point you mean with the above scenario. Now then, first the lesser if bound by those thoughts of worrying over not being as "sanctified" as another who is further along their path is fine but only unto a very narrow point. Initial worrying can be healthy and part refining one's self learning through the changes, but the second that turns from true earnest to envy and pity-worrying is when it now becomes sin. No one shall envy,jealous, or covet thy others treasures, and that's straight from the bible. Does this make any sense yet. Remember everyone is different from everyone else no two people on this earth are exactly the same through and through, so wouldn't works and sanctification and all other blessings be different for everyone and according to their path as well. That's why when we envy get jealous it is sinful because everyone is special and is given accordingly to each their own by Jesus and the Father God almighty.

"And James isn't talking about justification to God, that's Romans. James is talking about our justification towards man. The evidence of our saving faith. The evidence others should see in the life and actions of a true believer"

The only evidence needed by a true follower of Christ to see others is just simply by their works their fruit will be shown if any fruit should even be bared. But for me I try not to judge at all if possible because I myself was once one of the worst kinds of sinners satanic to the core, deep in black magic, drugs, crime, etc dark times but my flesh was extremely happier back then lol... I died during a ritual and that's when I truly experienced God's true love and how special us humans truly are. It took me being dead 7 and a half minutes to get it right lol, who am I to say anything of anyone regardless where they are in their walk. Hell I'am just thankful God loved me enough to spare me from hell back then because if God didn't intervene when I died I WOULD BE IN HELL NOW, so thank you God for my creation and everyone else. Long story short the only thing we should truly worry about is our standing with God and Jesus Christ Amen and God Bless.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I have a belief that i believe alone and that is that jesus is the first born over all creation

Colossians 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

As has already been stated firstborn does not always speak of order birth Genesis 48:13-22. Chris is eternal(John 1) and the creator of all things(verses above). Colossians is speaking of the authority given to Christ as firstborn(Greatestborn). Thinking of creation always gives me chills. Christ is God's word and God spoke everything into existence and the Holy Spirit imo is what we view as the interconnectedness of matter on a quantum level. Its quite beautiful when I imagine it. Also a bit scary.

a reply to: Ignatian

Could you please address this issue?

What benefit would metabolizing Jesus' physical flesh and blood have on a sinner's soul? The body will die and rot, so we know that Jesus' physical flesh and blood would be wasted with our corpses...and I've never seen a man gain imortality via cannibalism. Salvation is for the spirit, then we get a new body for the reborn spirit.

Jesus stated repeatedly that whoever would eat his flesh and drink his blood would have eternal life. (Jn 6:51-56) To throw the simplistic negative connotation of "cannibalism" as a term to describe this teaching of Our Lord is rather flippant.

Luke's writing of the disciples' meeting the risen Lord on the road to Emmaus also points to Real Presence in the Eucharist. The Lord took the bread, blessed it, broke it and then gave it to them , at which point they then recognized Him. Later, upon reporting to the other apostles what had happened, they told "how He was made known to them in the breaking of the bread" (Lk24:35)

Still doubt? Consult the writing of Saint Ignatius of Antioch. He was trained in the faith, and ordained by the apostles who were present at that first Eucharist. He wrote: "The EUCHARIST is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins and who, in His goodness, The Father raised"

The change from bread and wine, into The Body and Blood of Christ(transubstantiation) is of course a complete mystery, we will never fully understand. Even though we find this difficult to imagine, I doubt the God who created the universe, would have a problem performing this miracle as well.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The same Jesus Christ died for the Catholic that died for the Protestant.

Jesus died for the whole world, not just certain people.
The simple fact that Jesus died does nothing in itself for anyone, other than it indicates the extent that Jesus obeyed God.
People have to be accepted by Jesus in order to benefit from him.

a reply to: Ignatian

The proper term for the consumption of human flesh by another human is cannibalism. Im simply showing you, what you are suggesting Jesus taught. Jesus meant for the Eucharist to be a symbol of redemption by faith, Ignatius was simply repeating the symbol.
We know that Jesus did not mean for us to take it literally, because cannibalism is a sin.

You still didnt address the issue. How can the metabolization of Jesus' literal flesh and blood benefit our spirit, when the body which metabolizes the said flesh will pass away?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

. . . a symbol of redemption by faith . . .

Communion, I think, is what the word implies.
The Israelites of the exodus story ate and drank, always, from the exact same source.

a reply to: jmdewey60

The body of redeemed believers make up the body of Christ. In that sense, communion is implied...unity in Christ. Before you can be in union, you must believe in Christ.