Saved by grace thru faith alone: What is a work?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That is the entire point of this conversation....

Jesus did not teach Faith alone... DID NOT...

Yes he said all you have to do is believe in me... but the people who he was speaking to KNEW him Intimately...

They Knew what he meant when he said believe in me... HE wanted them to follow him, and learn about him so they could also teach others... and they did not just believe without works

One can not say they believe in Jesus without works... it just doesn't... Work LOL

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus did not teach Faith alone... DID NOT...

We're now talking about two different things again, James isn't describing the process of receiving saving faith, but the evidence of a person who has received saving faith. Don't forget the context and scope of James and apply it broader than the author intended.

What you said previously is perfect, leave it at that. The evidence of that faith is good works. Faith is made perfect when it leads to works.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I disagree actually... Faith is non existent, even fraudulent when it lacks any work...

Nothing but words without action... thoughts without the correct way of thinking...

Im not talking about James either...

Matthew 25

a reply to: Akragon

I'm lost.. Matthew 25 is a judgment Jesus makes on the nations when He returns. It's prophecy. You need to clarify.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

I'm lost.. Matthew 25 is a judgment Jesus makes on the nations when He returns. It's prophecy. You need to clarify.

Read the link... Its a part of Mat 25 not just the chapter...

It clarifies what im saying completely

a reply to: Akragon


Man I just read it all, it is describing a judgment Jesus makes on the nations when He returns and sits on His throne. It's called the "Sheep and Goats Judgment", and the nations are judged on how they treated the Jews during the Great Tribulation.

So please, clarify your argument.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Sure...

This pulls everything he taught together... they say to the king in this parable...

Did we not feed you and minister to you... Did we not clothe you, Did we not shelter you?

Did we not give you drink when you were thirsty... or visit with you when you were sick or in prison

And he said, what you did to the least of my brothers, you have done to me...


They believed in him, but lacked work... They did not know the lord

there was no love for others, only for their king...

And this my friend, its an example of what a large portion of Christianity actually is...

and why I am soured towards it

a reply to: Akragon


There seems to be a weird disconnect with us. NOTHING James says is wrong or in error. The error comes in when people make the assumption James is talking about how to be saved, he isn't. James is telling us what saved people do. What should be the evidence of a saved person. He isn't describing how to be saved, but how saved people act.

So nothing James writes about is wrong, a person claiming to be born again who has no evidence of that really needs to evaluate themselves and see if they are truly in the faith or not. The biggest practical example I can think of is Hitler. He claimed to be a Christian, but his "works" were murdering 6 million Jews. Claims to faith are irrelevant if that person's works scream otherwise.

there was no love for others, only for their king...

That's a great cause then to question their faith. I would say that a true Born Again person has love for others. Good point. Jesus says a good tree can only produce good fruit and an evil tree can only produce evil fruit. A good tree doesn't produce evil fruit.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

AMEN!

Who the Son set free is free indeed!

Jesus said: Be ye holy even as I am holy

And he gave us the way to do this! Believe upon his finished work of the cross, have faith that HE gained power over sin and death, that HE crushed the enemy (Satan) underfoot, and that sin and death have no more power over you!

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

a reply to: Akragon

THAT is why it is said.... Faith without works is dead

Yes, that is true, but what is equally important is works with out faith are dead.

All works have a motive. Jesus told us that our faith should be invested in Him. So if you work without faith in the Son, your works are dead.

a reply to: Akragon

Actually you are the one who lacks understanding in the this chapter... because you read until you find what you want then stop and disregard the rest...

Explain to me using grammar and syntax how I've ignored anything...you say I lack understanding but don't explain what your talking about because its obvious by the Scriptures I've given you that I am teaching a Biblical doctrine not a Pauline doctrine. You are getting frustrated because the more Scripture I show the more obvious it is that you are not following the rules of grammar when interpreting these verses.

Believing is not an action... IF you think it is you're as clueless as you appear...

Ok maybe you need some grammar lessons:

Verb

noun: verb; plural noun: verbs

a word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence, and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence, such as hear, become, happen

Believe

verb
verb: believe; 3rd person present: believes; past tense: believed; past participle: believed; gerund or present participle: believing

1.
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

Accept

verb
verb: accept; 3rd person present: accepts; past tense: accepted; past participle: accepted; gerund or present participle: accepting

1.
consent to receive (a thing offered).

Believing is a choice to consent to receive something. In the case of salvation, its choosing to accepts God's grace rather than depend on oneself. A choice is most definitely an action and so is a verb. So grammatically you are incorrect believing is an action. Now to say it isn't is what shows a person is clueless. You choose to eat because before hand you believed you were hungry or needed sustenance. You choose to avoid fire because before hand you believed fire would burn you. Belief comes before every physical action. You don't walk with something that clings to the ground in fear gravity might suddenly quit working because you believe gravity to stay the same past present and future. Hopefully you get the point.

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 15:19-20

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

As I've said repeatedly... IF you believe in HIM you do as he asked.... and he didn't ask them to just believe, He said FOLLOW ME... Learn from me... I AM that bread that came down from heaven... the words I speak are spirit, and are life... meaning How God wants them to live

First we have been discussing John 6. Jesus did tell us to follow him, but what did Jesus do? He went and told people who He was, and what He was here to do. He did miracles so people would know He wasn't lying and many of those miracles have to do with symbolizing what He was here to do. He came to tell us that He died so that we may live. Thee fact is friend none is Good but God. I will never get through to you only God can open your eyes. The most I can do is try to show you what your missing grammatically in Scripture and that his words get through to you.

Sure... Theres four books in the bible titled, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John... they give details of a man named Jesus... Who taught his followers to love God, and love their neighbour... which involves action not just words

Ok lets recap our conversation cause you obviously forgot where we were:
You:
"60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

IF It was Faith alone, he would not have needed to tell us how God wants us to live.... but all of the gospels cover the same thing... How God wants his children to live "

Me:
"Second, This interpretation verse 60-63 makes no sense...please point out where Jesus is telling them how to live...."

The you gave the quoted response above...You've done nothing to explain how those verses agree with what you have said....you just mentioned the name of the four gospels ..and yes I agree we are called to love our God and love our neighbors, but love is not just a physical action like all actions a person must choose to extend that love towards a person. Our choices are what matters the most in this life friend. So, if you died and went to heaven and God asked "Why should I let you in?" What would you say?

Sure if you disregard everything he teaches and focus on those three verses... Then you're dead on... unfortunately that's not the way it works....

Um....ive disregarded nothing lol you are the one throwing out bible verses.

You mentioned repentance above as being one of Christ teachings you realize the word translated repent means to change ones mind. The way the words are defined in Scripture tells us repentance is again a choice to trust in Christ and not in oneself. Basically you ideology diminishes the work on the cross. You are saying Christ died on the cross for sins but his sacrifice wasn't sufficient to pay for them all the way. You are the one ignoring his teachings friend not me.

the bread symbolises something... so does the blood... that's covered in that chapter as well Do you think he actually meant you have to eat his flesh and drink his bloo

Is english your first language? I mentioned the bread being symbolic already. Where did I say anything about believing the flesh and blood thing to being literal? No its not literal. It means anyone who depends on his work on the cross for salvation will have eternal life. Its that simple and the whole message of the Bible Genesis 5 the genealogy there is a coded message that says man is appointed mortal sorrow but the blessed god shall come down teaching that his death shall bring the despairing rest. You need to research more openly and more honestly.

Or you could just read the chapter and use a touch of logic... that probably wouldn't get you far though.... Look if you believe Jesus taught Faith alone... you're just confused and you've never actually read the gospels...

Says the guy ignoring the theme of the 4 books lol. You keep saying use logic but logic requires you use the rules of grammar and syntax and context to interpret the Bible. You aren't doing that at all. You are tired of my attitude because I am not giving your weak argument any credit because it doesn't hold any philosophically or historically.

a reply to: Akragon

They Knew what he meant when he said believe in me... HE wanted them to follow him, and learn about him so they could also teach others... and they did not just believe without works

Anyone who has a problem with that should study what it means to be a disciple
and especially back at the time, such as from the time of Socrates.
It was a discipline,
and think about how those two words relate to each other.

Yes, Jesus meant exactly what He said. Literally. You must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Just a symbol? lol. Fellow Jews, finally being in the presence of their Messiah, just up and walk away because they couldn't swallow Jesus' symbol? That's not logical. At all.

You refuse to believe this teaching because it's the teaching of The Catholic Church. The Church that Jesus started.

The Catholic Church has done exactly as Jesus instructed in John 6 for 2000 years.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

a reply to: Ignatian

Yes, Jesus meant exactly what He said. Literally. You must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Just a symbol? lol. Fellow Jews, finally being in the presence of their Messiah, just up and walk away because they couldn't swallow Jesus' symbol? That's not logical. At all. You refuse to believe this teaching because it's the teaching of The Catholic Church. The Church that Jesus started. The Catholic Church has done exactly as Jesus instructed in John 6 for 2000 years.

Um I don't reject it because its a Catholic teaching I reject it because if that was meant to be literal surely the disciples should have started cannibalizing Jesus on spot and so should everyone that met him. Oh jesus let me have a bite *takes his ear off* oh and a drink *pricks jugular and begins drinking* that didn't happen though did it what did happen was the cross. It is a metaphor for accepting his work on the cross.

a reply to: Ignatian

The two flaws in your logic are Transubstantiation and the idea that Jesus established a Catholic Church.

The Eucarist is a symbol meant for spiritual principles. We will be resurrected, what would be the point of our temporal bodies metabolizing Jesus' actual flesh and blood? If that were the case, then obviously transubstanciation shows no miraculous benefit to the physical body. The benefit of the Eucarist is understanding the symbol as a spiritual concept.

Upon faith in jesus, the believer is in union and identified with the Trinity. Jesus is a king-priest after the order of Melkizedek. That means that ALL believers are priests who are capable of confessing their own sins to God directly (without the help of the Catholic Church)...And, that also means that all believers are kings in training for the age to come (see the Parable of the Talents.) When the Church Age (notice how I didnt say, the "Catholic Church Age") is finally over, Christians will be resurrected and judged on the Bema Seat. Then, the Church will return to earth with Jesus as king-priests to rule during the Millenium. We will be king-priests under Jesus who is the King of kings and our High Priest.

The Catholic Church denies and suppresses the teaching that all Christians are priests, to enslave believers to some pseudo-priest hood establish by the Neo-Constantinian Church.

Very wrong on most counts. You dislike what you falsely believe about the The Roman Catholic Church. Study the church fathers, your conscience will lead you into the one true church founded by Christ. Baptism with water and the Spirit makes us all priests, prophets and Kings. The Catholic Church promulgated this teaching.

The Church existed for several hundred years before Constantine. He made it legal after his conversion, ending Christian persecution.

Simple question. Why did they leave? He asked them to eat his body, drink his blood, in his memory. And it freaked them out. Why won't you believe?

Take a look at The Miracle at Lanciano. Explain that away. You can't.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

a reply to: Ignatian

What benefit would metabolizing Jesus' physical flesh and blood have on a sinner's soul? The body will die and rot, so we know that Jesus' physical flesh and blood would be wasted with our corpses...and I've never seen a man gain imortality via cannibalism. Salvation is for the spirit, then we get a new body for the reborn spirit.

NOTurTypical is right, I shouldnt be fighting you over this. My point is, that everything in the bible has a spiritual meaning. What could Transubstanciation possibly contribute to Salvation?

Salvation is by faith only. The practice of taking the Eucharist is nonmeritorious. Any man/woman/child of any IQ is capable of eating and drinking. The consumtion symbolizes nonmeritorious faith, the wine symbolizes the blood that covers our sin, and the bread symbolizes the body of Christ in union with us. There is no way that the symbol can apply to our flesh.

If you base your salvation on water baptism and transubstanciation, then you have substituted the grace of God with your own works. It is not the act of taking the Eucharist that saves you, it is the faith behind the symbol...the faith that the Blood of Christ has made you clean, and that you are now in union with His body. Nor does water baptism save you, but the understanding that you are baptized in His death, and are reborn a new creature.

For the sake of your eternal life, I ask that you ignore the Catholic dogma, just for a moment, and raise these issues with God Himself.

I apologize for being short with you.

I despise watching brothers fight. The same Jesus Christ died for the Catholic that died for the Protestant. Both the Catholic and the Protestant affirms Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I believe what they mean in works, is speading the good news to others, helping those around you and protecting and loving the little ones the most precious in God's eyes, and planting seeds in people every chance you get. Thats why the phrase faith without works is dead. Faith in Jesus Christ without helping your fellow man is luke-warm faith and I think we all know how Jesus feels about luke-warm faith. When Jesus talked to the disicples and told them they seek him for bread and not works was talking about the material vs the spiritual. Flesh is the here and now, your soul is eternal though unlike your fleshly body. Jesus asks us to go forth and to do great works in his name for the glory of God for all. If we do not have a just fear for God, and earnestly seek him, and do not do works for his glory then our faith by works is surly dead and then what treasure have we built upon in heaven if we never did nothing on the earth, remember as above so below, what you manifest on earth is manifest on heaven as well this is key. If we do nothing but help ourselves then surly we have missed what Jesus expected of us in the life. I know I' am in good hands and it ain't ALLSTATE either.... God bless and may you grow in your walk with the Lord and be guided in his wisdom in Jesus name AMEN.

a reply to: BlessedLore

Faith in Jesus Christ without helping your fellow man is luke-warm faith and I think we all know how Jesus feels about luke-warm faith.

What if the person is a "babe in Christ"? What if the person is going through a period where they are not in the fold with the 99 and have wandered off? Is Jesus just the Author of our faith or the Author AND Finisher of our faith?

The answer is simple, James isn't talking about the method of salvation, but the evidence of it. James wasn't addressed to non-believers, but Christians. It's a letter of exhortation.