It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Saved by grace thru faith alone: What is a work?

page: 4
7
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 11:50 PM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

"Bownie points in heaven"....Do you really have to mock Christ like that? Jesus told us that those servants who serve Christ faithfully will inheret cities and blessings in eternity. Remember the Parable of the Talents?
What cities?
The parable was about the Jews and how they kept the knowledge of God to themselves.

1 John 1:9 was a direct order for Christians to confess their sins to God. The result of citing our sins is being cleansed of unrighteousness. We confess our sins because Christ made us a kingdom of Priests. Confession is a priestly function. Each individual believer in Christ is a priest who represents themselves to God, hence my title Believer-Priest.
I think that the part, ". . . we have fellowship with one another . . .", in the preceding verse has to do with what sort of confession the writer of 1 John is talking about.
And the "blood of Jesus" that purifies us, I think is a reference to what we gather over in communion, the symbolic blood of Jesus symbolized in the wine in the cup that we drink from as a group.
Rather than a secret confession, it really means how we live in an open way where if we sin, it would be evident to those others in the group, which would probably prevent the cup from being passed to the one who has sinned and not confessed it in a way that showed repentance.
edit on 19-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 11:51 PM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60




Dying for our sins (which the Bible does say) is not the same thing as saying that Jesus died to pay for our sins (which the Bible does not say).


Actually it does, that's what "propitiation" means:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." ~ 1 John 2:2

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--" ~ Romans 3:25

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." ~ 1 John 4:10


HIS death, atoned for OUR sins. It doesn't any more clear than that.



edit on 18-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:07 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I don't agree with that. We are spiritually dead in our sins. The first step God does is open our spirit up to even be led by the Holy Spirit. Unregenerate unbelievers had no desire in their own flesh to do the will of God. Jesus' call to the 12 was first to conversion before He ever called them to discipleship. Sanctification shouldn't be confused with salvation/justification. Any book on systematic theology expresses this truth of scripture. Sanctification has a definite beginning at regeneration.
"Books on systematic theology" is just so much theories and I would recommend not trying to follow those as if they were the Bible.
I think that you have way to much of that sort of thing in your head and it prevents you from properly understanding what the Bible actually does say, and it is none of what you just wrote here.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:09 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I agree with what you said Paul was writing about. But also there was a spiritual truth being taught to all Christians by the Holy Spirit in that passage.
It does not justify a complete fabrication of something that stands above what it explicitly says.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:12 AM
link   

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: NOTurTypical


I agree with what you said Paul was writing about. But also there was a spiritual truth being taught to all Christians by the Holy Spirit in that passage.
It does not justify a complete fabrication of something that stands above what it explicitly says.



Well, the verse we are talking about doesn't "explicitly" limit it to Paul, he says "anyone". So he himself didn't limit it to himself.


"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." ~ 1 Cor. 3:10-15


edit on 19-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:14 AM
link   
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Yea you are not understanding the question asked to Jesus, "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? " What shall who do? We. Not God We. They are asking what actions should they preform to do God's will. He says believe in the on he has sent. Our work to do God's will is to believe in the one he has sent.



Actually you are the one who lacks understanding in the this chapter... because you read until you find what you want then stop and disregard the rest...

Believing is not an action... IF you think it is you're as clueless as you appear...

As I've said repeatedly... IF you believe in HIM you do as he asked.... and he didn't ask them to just believe, He said FOLLOW ME... Learn from me... I AM that bread that came down from heaven... the words I speak are spirit, and are life... meaning How God wants them to live

Im starting to think you're hopeless because of your love for Paul...


Actually your wrong. All the Gospels tell us Gods children can't live the way they are supposed thus our need for Jesus.


So obviously you've never read them...


Second, This interpretation verse 60-63 makes no sense...please point out where Jesus is telling them how to live....


Sure... Theres four books in the bible titled, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John... they give details of a man named Jesus... Who taught his followers to love God, and love their neighbour... which involves action not just words

you don't understand what im saying because you don't understand him... You prefer Paul because his path is easy... just believe and you get a free ticket to paradise... Where as Jesus said, you are the light of the world...do not hide that light show it to glorify God... give to others without expectation, forgive and have mercy... repent for what you've done wrong... I could write pages about what he taught...

But again, I think im wasting my time with a lost Paulian... who would rather insult then attempt to learn...


Verse 47 Verse 50 both of those still say only He will get you to Heaven it has nothing to do with works. There is no way to read that into these verse unless your being grammatically ignorant of the sentence structure and diction.


Sure if you disregard everything he teaches and focus on those three verses... Then you're dead on...

unfortunately that's not the way it works....

the bread symbolises something... so does the blood... that's covered in that chapter as well

Do you think he actually meant you have to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

Why would he tell people to FOLLOW him if all he wanted was for them to believe in him?

How would they believe in him IF he didn't show the works he came to do?


I agree, and all he ask is that you trust in Him and spread the word.


Sigh...


Christ left the bread metaphor and spoke directly in verse 63 you really have to twist Scripture something hard to get your ideas.
]

Or you could just read the chapter and use a touch of logic...

that probably wouldn't get you far though....

Look if you believe Jesus taught Faith alone... you're just confused and you've never actually read the gospels...

And im getting tired of your attitude...

So stick to your saviour Paul... And believe in Faith alone...

But remember "what you do to the least of them you have done to HIM"

Peace


edit on 19-12-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:19 AM
link   
a reply to: Akragon




Believing is not an action...


Sure it is, it's a present tense verb.


He said FOLLOW ME...


Correct, but that was His call to discipleship. That came after His call to salvation. All believers are called to discipleship.



edit on 19-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:23 AM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Im sorry, but what the hell are you talking about? Im really starting to believe that you are making this nonsense up as you go along. Jesus promised His believers resurrection...that was the basic reward for faith. From that point, the more faith-works you produce, the greater the reward.
Jesus said eternal life, which is starting now, when you believe. The only promise of resurrection was for those who did good deeds in a selfless manner.

I dont think you honestly believe what you are spouting.
I wouldn't be saying things that I didn't believe, so I suggest you get over that.

You are hiding from the truth that Christ revealed because the gospel offends the fallen nature of man.
I do plenty of offending, so my gospel would then, by your standard, be true.

If you ever hope to see peace in the afterlife, you will realize that Jesus died for your sins, and that your passage into heaven is dependent on His works, not yours.
I already believe all that part. I don't understand why you assume and claim that I don't. I just don't go along with your inserted corollary, that it was making a payment for sins, which is not taught in the Bible, and to the contrary, says a lot of things that would go against that idea.

As long as you hold your works higher than His, you are believing and spreading a false gospel.
When did I ever say anything like that?
I would suggest that you start believing in the works of God, and allow that in your own person. It isn't just a fum side effect of happiness, it is the very purpose of what Jesus did, to make things not so awful on earth as a place where everyone has to live.
Do you really think that God is happy with the world as a cesspool as long as people can go to heaven after a life of misery and death?
edit on 19-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:29 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical


Sure it is, it's a present tense verb.


What action is belief?


Correct, but that was His call to discipleship[/]. That came after His call to salvation. All believers are called to discipleship.




perhaps but while he was actually speaking to people he meant it literally...

As in Sell everything you own and follow me



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:34 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical


"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal." ~ Matthew 6:19-20
Things that you "lay up" is not rewards or presents but things that you already have and then do something with.

"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." ~ 1 Cor. 3:10-15
Paul is making an analogy. He does not expound on it to make it into a description of some sort of ceremony that everyone is subjected to.
It is about "a builder", so is only about himself who is the tent-maker, where the tent is all the people of the church he helped raise up.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:35 AM
link   
a reply to: Akragon




What action is belief?


Mental I suppose. Believe




perhaps but while he was actually speaking to people he meant it literally... As in Sell everything you own and follow me


I don't disagree with that. That's what disciples did with their rabbis. But it WAS His call to discipleship. Their faith compelled them accept His call.








edit on 19-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:41 AM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Somehow, you have convinced yourself that up really means down, and that down really means sideways. I dont know who has been teaching you these lies, but you need to wake up.
No one is teaching me anything, and these are things that I learned from reading the Bible with an open mind and not prejudiced with man made doctrines.
I suspect that you were taught things and never questioned their validity against actual biblical teachings.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:43 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical


Mental I suppose.


had to look it up myself actually just to make sure... LOL... and I still disagree...

There is no action in belief... it is mental as you said, thus it is not an action word (verb) as it is defined...

Belief requires evidence... real action... or its just words


don't disagree with that. That's what disciples did with their rabbis. But it WAS His call to discipleship. Their faith made them accept His call.


except... that's not what he says....

its not their faith that has anything to do with them hearing his call... Tis the work of God, not faith...

Just as when he askes peter "who do you think I am"... He replies "you are the son of God"

Do you remember his answer?

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

SO...It wasn't their faith... it was God working in them that made them accept his call...

My sheep know my voice...


edit on 19-12-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:45 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I have no clue either. The Word says every man will be resurrected, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt.

"15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." ~ Acts 24:15
That is not "Jesus", which was the topic, what Jesus said.

"28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ~ John 5:28-29
This says nothing about anyone believing in one thing or another.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:50 AM
link   
a reply to: Akragon

Hey man u are free to believe whatever you wish (pun intended), but "believe" is clearly a verb as I linked, and verbs are actions. So that's all I can do, "believing" is a present tense verb, it's an action.


SO...It wasn't their faith... it was God working in them that made them accept his call...


Man that's the Christian doctrine, that faith is a gift from God. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that gives faith and compels action on that faith.


edit on 19-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:52 AM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60




This says nothing about anyone believing in one thing or another.


Those verses reject your claim, that only certain people will be resurrected. That's more like a Jehovah's Witness doctrine. And the verses also show that resurrection is not the "reward" the writer was talking about. It's not a reward if everyone is resurrected.



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:58 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

HIS death, atoned for OUR sins. It doesn't any more clear than that.
That is an interpretive way to translate the verse.
I know that I have gone over this before with you, but I will go through it again since you seem to have forgotten.

What is translated as propitiation is the same word as used in the Septuagint for the Mercy Seat in the Most Holy place in the wilderness tabernacle which was where YHWH would judge Israel from.

What Paul was discussing was the comparison between the Old Testament system and the New Testament, where instead of punishing the heathen for not all following Judaism, God has provided them with the alternative, which is Jesus as our Mercy Seat, meaning that we have a whole new thing that will work with the pagans that they can now find a path to righteousness before God.

In 1 John, the Greek word is just a thing that makes a reconciliation between God and man, which is Jesus.

So, what is "clear" is only what you want to believe already, to torture the verses into some sort of description of something that it does not mean at all.
If it really meant that, I am sure it would have been made really clear, and not something that can only be inferred by really stretching the boundaries of the meanings of words.
edit on 19-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:58 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical


Hey man u are free to believe whatever you wish (pun intended), but "believe" is clearly a verb as I linked, and verbs are actions. So that's all I can do, "believing" is a present tense verb, it's an action.


I suppose faith is an action as well then?

And Trust... another action?




Man that's the Christian doctrine, that faith is a gift from God. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that gives faith and compels action on that faith.


that's what I said, it had nothing to do with them...

it was God working within them... as he stated




posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 01:04 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Well, the verse we are talking about doesn't "explicitly" limit it to Paul, he says "anyone". So he himself didn't limit it to himself.
"Anyone", singular, meaning "any person", so it does not mean anything like "everyone".



posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 01:11 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Those verses reject your claim, that only certain people will be resurrected. That's more like a Jehovah's Witness doctrine. And the verses also show that resurrection is not the "reward" the writer was talking about. It's not a reward if everyone is resurrected.
You seem to be making a straw man here.
That was not my claim.
What was being discussed was whether Jesus promised people to be resurrected for believing in him.
The verses you cited do not support that claim, that was given by someone else, nor does it refute my claim that he didn't.




top topics



 
7
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join