The Dissolution of the United States as a Superpower

originally posted by: Krazysh0t


Look, you can believe what you want about Native influences, but I presented CLEAR information that shows that our forefathers talked about and considered Iroquois society when discussing our own future government. Just because they aren't spelled out in the Constitution doesn't mean they aren't there.

So you are going to give me one source coming from a known Blue State liberal establishment, and then post a link about "everything my teacher told me was wrong" I am beside myself here...

but I type in a google search for ben franklin+american indians and I get nothing but pages and pages of this...

“If it be the design of Providence to extirpate these Savages in order to make room for cultivators of the Earth

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com...

Remarks concerning the Savages of North America

www.wampumchronicles.com...

Care to explain your clearly pseudo-history

I'm really confused what your problem with the British is.

Britain is genocidal mass murders of Native Americans for one... and this pattern is the same pattern Britain has exhibited globally with any lesser culture they have come into contact with.

originally posted by: AinElohim
Britain is genocidal mass murders of Native Americans for one...

I don't remember Custer being British.......


Sure Britain did some crappy things to natives.

But the USA carried that ill treatment on long after we left you.



And erm hate to break it to you but that was over 200 years ago........No reason to hate a country for past events.

originally posted by: AinElohim

originally posted by: Krazysh0t


Look, you can believe what you want about Native influences, but I presented CLEAR information that shows that our forefathers talked about and considered Iroquois society when discussing our own future government. Just because they aren't spelled out in the Constitution doesn't mean they aren't there.

So you are going to give me one source coming from a known Blue State liberal establishment, and then post a link about "everything my teacher told me was wrong" I am beside myself here...

but I type in a google search for ben franklin+american indians and I get nothing but pages and pages of this...

“If it be the design of Providence to extirpate these Savages in order to make room for cultivators of the Earth

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com...

Care to read the FULL quote and not one that has been quote mined? Franklin's Autobiography

The next day, sensible they had misbehaved in giving us that disturbance, they sent three of their old counselors to make their apology. The orator acknowledged the fault, but laid it upon the rum; and then endeavored to excuse the rum by saying: "The Great Spirit, who made all things, made everything for some use, and whatever use he designed anything for, that use it should always be Put to. Now, when he made rum, he said,' Let this be for the Indians to get drunk with,' and it must be so." And, indeed, if it be the design of Providence to extirpate these savages in order to make room for cultivators of the earth, it seems not improbable that rum may be the appointed means. It has already annihilated all the tribes who formerly inhabited the sea-coast.

Looks like Franklin was REALLY talking about alcoholism running rampant and destroying Native society.

Remarks concerning the Savages of North America

www.wampumchronicles.com...

Did you even READ anything from this link? The whole thing is Ben Franklin praising "Savage" life over European society. There isn't a single bad thing he has to say about Natives in that entire excerpt. His usage of the term "Savage" was CLEARLY tongue in cheek since the article was comparing European society with "Savage" society and finding "Savage" society superior. He used the term to make the reader ask himself, "why are we calling these people savages when they behave better than we do?" Here an excerpt:

Having frequent Occasions to hold public Councils, they have acquired great Order and Decency in conducting them. The old Men sit in the foremost Ranks, the Warriors in the next, and the Women & Children in the hindmost. The Business of the Women is to take exact Notice of what passes, imprint it in their Memories, for they have no Writing, and communicate it to their Children. They are the Records of the Councils, and they preserve Traditions of the Stipulations in Treaties 100 Years back, which when we compare with our Writings we always find exact. He that would speak rises. The rest observe a profound Silence. When he has finish’d and sits down; they leave him 5 or 6 Minutes to recollect, that if he has omitted any thing he intended to say, or has any thing to add, he may rise again and deliver it. To interrupt another, even in common Conversation, is reckon’d highly indecent. How different this is, from the Conduct of a polite British House of Commons where scarce every person without some confusion, that makes the Speaker hoarse in calling to Order and how different from the Mode of Conversation in many polite Companies of Europe, where if you do not deliver your Sentence with great Rapidity, you are cut off in the middle of it by the Impatients Loquacity of those you converse with, and never suffer’d to finish it—

Care to explain your clearly pseudo-history

Pseudo-history? That's a joke. You didn't even read one of your sources (like at all) and your quote was taken out of context. YOU are the one pushing pseudo-history.

Britain is genocidal mass murders of Native Americans for one... and this pattern is the same pattern Britain has exhibited globally with any lesser culture they have come into contact with.

No more so than any other country dealing in the New World. Why aren't you calling out Spain for massacring the peoples in Central and South America? Heck, American colonists and later Americans routinely captured and sold Natives into slavery.
The Untold History of American Indian Slavery

I'm starting to really doubt that you have a clear understanding of American history.

originally posted by: crazyewok
And erm hate to break it to you but that was over 200 years ago........No reason to hate a country for past events

hey friend... you brought it up

that'll be enough of that now won't it lol.

and no there is no connection between our two nations any longer.

yes yes magna carta and all that jazz but England still had divine Kings who made law.

USA never experienced any of that and our two forms of government are different, England being based on "liberalism" and USA on "individual rights"

a reply to: Krazysh0t

about dot com eh?

there is nothing in your giant post about the Constitution of the USA relating to Ben Franklin and Indians.

is there a point I missed somewhere?

originally posted by: AinElohim


yes yes magna carta and all that jazz but England still had divine Kings who made law.

By 1776 that divine right had ceased to exist

George III was a figure head. All laws were made via parliament.

Read up on the English Civil war. It defined Britain and had effects that lead up to the American revolution.
It set a precedent of the first use of the "right to bear arms" being used to depose a tyrant.

The fact in the past we not only fought a king but beheaded him would have given the founding fathers faith they could fight against a divided parliament 3000 miles over a ocean away.

originally posted by: AinElohim
USA never experienced any

No as you did no exist before the English civil war except in the form of a few poor and very small scattered settlements .

I

a reply to: AinElohim

I already made my point about Ben Franklin as it pertains to the Constitution, that post was meant to show that you didn't do your due diligence when you tried to counter my point about Ben Franklin and the Constitution. You ended up further proving my point actually. The fact that you not only didn't acknowledge this, but completely missed it mystifies me. Are you trying to PURPOSELY be ignorant of how history went down?

originally posted by: AinElohim


and no there is no connection between our two nations any longer.

And not quite true.

The industrial revolution started in the UK and the USA took that and ran with it.


Black civil rights and the abolition of slavery started in the UK which gave power to the abolitionists in the USA. The Royal navy played a key role in shutting down the transatlantic slave trade.

For modern examples the USA and UK fought side by side to liberate Europe.

UK and USA are linked today in one of the worlds closest alliances.

a reply to: crazyewok

For further reading (which I'm sure our esteemed colleague that we are debating with will ignore):
The Great Rapprochement

However, the Americans were aware of how much they owed to their British background, and the British institutions had always contrasted favorably against their European counterparts; as early as 1823, the United Kingdom backed up the American Monroe Doctrine, and the two countries cooperated in naval anti-piracy and anti slave trade efforts. The differences that had separated an agrarian and anti-imperialist United States and the industrialized, imperialistic Britain had rapidly diminished after 1860. The United States in 1865 emerged from its civil war a major industrial power with a more centralized government, and emerged from the Spanish–American War (1898) an imperial power with possessions around the globe, and a special interest in the approaches to what in 1914 became the Panama Canal.

By 1901 many influential Britons advocated for a closer relationship between the two countries. W. T. Stead even proposed that year in The Americanization of the World that the British Empire and the United States merge to unify the English-speaking world, as doing so would help Britain "continue for all time to be an integral part of the greatest of all World-Powers, supreme on sea and unassailable on land, permanently delivered from all fear of hostile attack, and capable of wielding irresistible influence in all parts of this planet". The Scottish-born American Andrew Carnegie shared the goal, telling Stead "We are heading straight to the Re-United States".[1] As American Anglophobia declined, London realized the value of a long-term ally that would prevent an upset in Britain's balance of power, which Germany and Russia appeared to threaten.

Also:

The most notable sign of a warming in Anglo-American relations was the United Kingdom's actions during the Spanish–American War. Britain had long favored Spanish control over Cuba, because the threat of possession of Cuba by an unfriendly United States might harm British trade in the Caribbean. However, with the warming of Anglo-American relations and a guarantee of Cuban independence by the U.S. in 1898, Britain abandoned this policy and supported the U.S. policy of calling for the independence of Cuba.[4]

At the start of the Spanish–American War, most Continental European powers remained neutral and cool though warning Spain repeatedly not to provoke a war with the more powerful U.S. Britain also remained neutral but openly sided with America.[5] During the 90-day war, Britain sold coal to the U.S. Navy and allowed the U.S. Military to use Britain's undersea cables to communicate.[6] When Commodore Dewey's fleet sailed out of Hong Kong's harbor for Manila, the British soldiers and sailors in the harbor unabashedly cheered for them.[7]

originally posted by: crazyewok
By 1776 that divine right had ceased to exist

well we're sill not interested...

yeah I guess we are connected, we're the people who neutered Europe after WW2

and hence your self destructive liberalism.

I know we are connected and allies because England has 5000 residents emigrating out of England every week, those numbers could be alot higher?

And we are having a British Invasion on the East Coast!

---

well this source here says 400 per day... www.telegraph.co.uk...

a reply to: AinElohim

Whatever.


You are obviously not interested in learning or talking about REAL history.
Just thumping you chest and spewing out ignorant half truths and propaganda.

The fact your are so closed minded and refuse to take in factual points speaks for a small and ignorant mind.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: AinElohim

Whatever.


You are obviously not interested in learning or talking about REAL history.
Just thumping you chest and spewing out ignorant half truths and propaganda.

The fact your are so closed minded and refuse to take in factual points speaks for a small and ignorant mind.

it's not about history... we are done there.

the topic is decline of empires "real-time"


It seem England is having a real problem on its hands when they have 1.3 million of the highest skilled college educated workforce leaving the country every year. The problem becomes real apparent when you consider England only has a 55 million population total.

And with one of the lowest birth replacement rates in Europe I can surely understand now why Blair and Cameron come on air and say things like "we need our muslim population" and why the news media is softening the British sensibilities to the reality of the situation.

Anyone who can do basic math and use simple deductive reasoning can determine what England will look like in the next 30 years.

originally posted by: crazyewok
My money went further in Tokyo than USA

True but it depends if big large houses are what you value in life.

Anyway thats not anything to do with American "exceptionlism" just you guys being lucky and having lots and lots of land!
And even then it depends in the states were you live. I remember looking at property in San Diego when I got a job offer there and the prices were worse than here in the UK, same with Chicago.

You are missing my point. It is all about choices and what you can afford. Most places that are cheaper than the states have a lot less choices, a lot less, and other places that may have more choices but still well under the US are a lot more expensive.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: crazyewok
My money went further in Tokyo than USA

True but it depends if big large houses are what you value in life.

Anyway thats not anything to do with American "exceptionlism" just you guys being lucky and having lots and lots of land!
And even then it depends in the states were you live. I remember looking at property in San Diego when I got a job offer there and the prices were worse than here in the UK, same with Chicago.

You are missing my point. It is all about choices and what you can afford. Most places that are cheaper than the states have a lot less choices, a lot less, and other places that may have more choices but still well under the US are a lot more expensive.

And I 4hink your missing my point.

America is not the be all end all.
America is not for everyone.

As far as life in the developed world goes its slightly better than adverage.


If the USA is the best place in the world Id be living there as I would have taken one of the many job offers from the states.

Instead Im looking at Canada or New Zealand.


The USA is your home, I get that. You will have a natural affinity for it.

But dont presume to speak for the developed world.

For me the USA was not a bad place, no was it the best place. Get over it,

Opinions on others nay of course change. For otgers the USA may be the best place. But that is there natural prefrence.

The delevloped world come in many diffrent flavours, the USA is just one.

a reply to: crazyewok

ah man are you leaving England?

USA is the best place in the world... get over it!

There's nothing but a munch of draft dodging hippie heroin addicts in Canada, New Zealand sounds nice... I have an ex down under. NZ is broke as all hell... and if you're going to NZ you may want to touch up on your Mandarin.

it seems you may have missed this video? ...because you sure are avoiding the facts.

originally posted by: AinElohim
a reply to: crazyewok

ah man are you leaving England?

USA is the best place in the world... get over it!

There's nothing but a munch of draft dodging hippie heroin addicts in Canada, New Zealand sounds nice... I have an ex down under. NZ is broke as all hell... and if you're going to NZ you may want to touch up on your Mandarin.

it seems you may have missed this video? ...because you sure are avoiding the facts.

Best according to what statistics? It's certainly not education. I KNOW it isn't healthcare. Not freedom either.

I know! It must be incarceration rate. No? How about number of people incarcerated? Maybe you mean income inequality?

OR maybe you are just talking out your ass from a limited viewpoint on world cultures.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Healthcare... you want healthcare from your government?

Healthcare like Canada or UK or Russia?

it seems you have missed this video? because you are still avoiding the facts.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Best according to what statistics? It's certainly not education.

are you sure you're not from Europe?

cause where the heck do you get your news?

the United States is by far ahead in education, higher educated than the next 5 runner up nations combined.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t


OR maybe you are just talking out your ass from a limited viewpoint on world cultures.

I am going with this and a good dose of Fox news

originally posted by: AinElohim


the United States is by far ahead in education,

Ok now I think hes trolling