Polls Close In Historic Scottish Referendum

I knew this referendum process would be divisive but the levels of acrimony shown towards the English has been a bit shocking to me. I never knew Scots held such beliefs against their neighbours. Good to see English members of ATS so restrained in their debating, but then we English are a polite bunch.

originally posted by: mrnotobc
I'm very disappointed in the no vote. I hope the vote was rigged, because I refuse to believe my ancestors have fallen to this level. From now on whenever, and forever after I drink scotch I'll refer to it as pussy juice.

Your ancestors??? Have access to a TARDIS do you?

a reply to: stumason

Well this is ATS so dismissing an idea just because it's "fringe" isn't really what we do.

I assume you're right and that the whole thing is totally above board, but I personally have never been down to the places where votes are counted to see what I can and cannot observe.
It's true you can't have thousands of people in on a conspiracy, but is there another way to do it? How are the votes transported from the polling stations, and how are they stored pre-counting.
If they were under such close scrutiny what's going on in that video? If those votes are uncounted surely one of these many observers should have said: "Hey I think we should move that A4 sheet of paper with a big NO written on it"

a reply to: numberjuggler

You misunderstand, I didn't dismiss anything because it was "fringe", but rather it is only a fringe that believe it was rigged - two entirely different concepts.

What is going on in that video is that it's been edited to look like something it wasn't - context is important in almost all things and a short clip provides none whatsoever - another poster on here has said he saw that video/broadcast in it's entirety and that wasn't just a load of papers randomly dumped on the table, or put into a pile they shouldn't, but rather a pile awaiting counting.

I am also not about to educate you on how the counting process works - this information is freely available and, to be honest, before anyone starts jumping up and down shouting "fraud!" they really should see what the process is first and precisely how hard it would be to rig a vote in the UK.

Here is a guide on how Ballot Boxes should be transported, for example. On the rest of the site is procedures for other electoral activities.

As you can see from all the different processes, every activity is covered and requires multiple levels of security and scrutiny. If at any stage this isn't followed, or if anyone has their suspicions, they should sound the alarm. Do you honestly think the Yes camp would allow anything to go unchallenged?

originally posted by: numberjuggler
It's true you can't have thousands of people in on a conspiracy, but is there another way to do it? How are the votes transported from the polling stations, and how are they stored pre-counting.

I think that before people cast accusations that a vote was fixed, or that there was a conspiracy to tamper, they should do the research. In the UK, elections are strictly monitored and controlled. Go on, do the research www.electoralcommission.org.uk... .

In the case of this video. What does it prove? It proves that a table with a handwritten "NO" has piles of "YES" votes on it. There is no context, nor comment from the people doing the count as to the status of the piles. It is just another out-of-context video proving bugger-all, but somehow proving everything to those who want to believe something!

Regards

Thanks for the links.

The first one seems to be the international standard for transporting votes. I'd certainly like to think this is how it works in the UK but this is exactly what the Russian observer was saying didn't happen. (I know Putin crony etc)

The link from the UK electoral commission is going to be spot on right? Its their job to inform the public about this stuff:
www.electoralcommission.org.uk...
"On this page, you will find all of our guidance and resources for (Acting) Returning Officers administering a UK Parliamentary election."

So I scroll down to

"Preparations for the count
Managing the verification and count
Verification and count procedures
Part E: Verification and count (PDF)"

Click the link:"This document is currently in development and will be available soon."

Nice!

I assume you're right and there are procedures in place in the UK to make large scale fraud impossible, but I would like to see them clearly stated which the electoral commission site fails to do.

a reply to: numberjuggler

Try something specific to the Scottish Referendum... scotlandreferendum.info...

Also, opens in a PDF, but here's a report on the very low instances of election fraud in the UK www.electoralcommission.org.uk...

The UK is not (er) Russia / Crimea.

Regards

a reply to: numberjuggler

My link, while detailing international standards, does pertain to the UK and is written from a UK perspective. In hindsight, I should have done what paraphi did and link the Electoral Commission instead.

Also, Russian Observer? News to me there was even one there, although it is hardly surprising he should try to smear the vote, but it is telling that if it is true he was there, he is the only one to have said anything. I know there were people from Canada, Spain and Italy (amongst others) present as well and none of them have a bad word to say about the vote, procedurally.

originally posted by: stumason
Also, Russian Observer?

Probably the same one that was in Crimea. Hopefully he will have learned something!

Regards

BTW Scotland i agree that Cameron and Co are a bunch of lying tools, we in the North need your help to get rid of them in the next election. If you had voted yes we would probably have been stuck with them for a long time.