Battle For Strategic Mariupol Begins, NATO Vows To Do "Whatever It Takes"

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

Russian weapons in Ukraine, are made in Ukraine. Not any more though

Most of what Ukraine uses are left overs from the Warsaw pact countries, because they export what they make.

Mr. Clark said in a report that Ukraine needs former Soviet bloc countries to provide T-72 tanks and anti-tank weapons, yet the state-owned Ukrainian Defense Industry produces and tries to sell anti-armor weapons and makes its own main battle tank, the T-84.

“What Ukrainian experts point to more often is that Ukrainian arms firms, which make perfectly good tanks, export them all for tons of money, leaving the Ukrainian military with T-62s,” said Steven Woehrel of the Congressional Research Service.

Ken Allard, a retired Army officer and military analyst, said Ukraine’s 1991 independence from the Soviet Union made it a de facto demilitarized zone between Poland and Russia.

“Ukraine was cast adrift from both Russian military and from NATO,” he said. “So where could they go for a future role model?”

He added, “About all they had on hand militarily was mostly obsolete equipment inherited from the Warsaw Pact. Romania and Poland, in contrast, used their partnership with NATO to modernize and upgrade their forces to NATO standards. In Bosnia, for example, I served with both the Polish and Romanian contingent. They were ferociously determined to put things right, almost the way we were after Vietnam.”

www.washingtontimes.com...

So it seems they still use weapons from the soviet union that were first used by Warsaw Pact countries, so obviously they aren't making weapons in Ukraine for their military.

Ukraine is not our friend, they even steal the Gas we Europeans paid for.

Have any proof of that or did you just pull that out of the hat, because if Europe didn't like Ukraine and see a future why would they be asked to join the EU, as I am sure it takes a majority vote to bring in other countries .

They steal gas, well what's to stop them stealing weapons made for export too?

If Ukraine have not and will not steal gas, why is the EU giving warnings not to siphon off gas from Russia in transit via Ukraine to the EU?

Why is that issue even raised?

Ukraine even threatened to take the gas during Winter.

Reason Ukraine is backing down many times, EU pulls their strings, and America pulls EU strings.

As for reverse flow, that is also similar to stealing, except for profit. It is against the contractual terms.

a reply to: Patriotsrevenge

NATO is a defensive alliance, PERIOD!!

Oh yeah, sure they are. Just tell that to all the dead Iraqi citizens.

Ukraine wanted to be prosperous with the EU instead of living in slums of the cold war under Russia.

Actually Ukraine decided to go with Russia and the west couldn't let that stand so we instigated the overthrow of the democratically elected president and put in a puppet stooge we could control. And "Viola!" now Ukraine wants to join the EU. Go figure.

As far as the U.S. missile defense system in Europe, well Putin just cries because he can.

I watched the live broadcasts when JFK blocked the Russian ships from Cuba. The US doesn't like missiles on their doorstep any more than Russia. I don't blame them.

a reply to: jajaja

As for reverse flow, that is also similar to stealing, except for profit. It is against the contractual terms.

Similar to stealing, except for one thing it will be done with the consent of all involved.

Ukraine even threatened to take the gas during Winter.

And where exactly did you see or read that?

Reason Ukraine is backing down many times, EU pulls their strings, and America pulls EU strings.

So EU pulls the strings of Ukraine, and America pulls the EU's strings.

Care to provide a link to where you saw that?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

As for reverse flow, that is also similar to stealing, except for profit. It is against the contractual terms.

Similar to stealing, except for one thing it will be done with the consent of all involved.

Ukraine even threatened to take the gas during Winter.

And where exactly did you see or read that?

Reason Ukraine is backing down many times, EU pulls their strings, and America pulls EU strings.

So EU pulls the strings of Ukraine, and America pulls the EU's strings.

Care to provide a link to where you saw that?

I think Gasprom has not consented to reverse flow of their gas.

a reply to: Bassago

Actually Ukraine decided to go with Russia and the west couldn't let that stand so we instigated the overthrow of the democratically elected president and put in a puppet stooge we could control. And "Viola!" now Ukraine wants to join the EU. Go figure.

Joining the EU with Yanukovych as president was all but signed until Putin used the strong arm on Yanukovych so he wouldn't sign.

For years Yanukovych promised Ukrainians that he would sign an agreement with the EU, which would benefit Ukraine’s economy substantially. Protesters felt betrayed that he suddenly and without explanation shifted his position. All fingers pointed to Russia as the main mover behind the decision; it was Moscow that pressured Yanukovych not to sign the agreement, said Samuel Charap, a senior fellow for Russia and Eurasia at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

Soon after Yanukovych's decision, Russian President Vladimir Putin offered Ukraine an economic aid package worth $15 billion and a 33 percent discount on Russian natural gas in late December, angering protesters even more as they viewed this as a reward for pulling out of the European deal.

www.ibtimes.com...

Ukraine has always wanted to be part of the EU, but a certain neighbor puts enough pressure on them so they don't sign.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Bassago

Actually Ukraine decided to go with Russia and the west couldn't let that stand so we instigated the overthrow of the democratically elected president and put in a puppet stooge we could control. And "Viola!" now Ukraine wants to join the EU. Go figure.

Joining the EU with Yanukovych as president was all but signed until Putin used the strong arm on Yanukovych so he wouldn't sign.

For years Yanukovych promised Ukrainians that he would sign an agreement with the EU, which would benefit Ukraine’s economy substantially. Protesters felt betrayed that he suddenly and without explanation shifted his position. All fingers pointed to Russia as the main mover behind the decision; it was Moscow that pressured Yanukovych not to sign the agreement, said Samuel Charap, a senior fellow for Russia and Eurasia at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

Soon after Yanukovych's decision, Russian President Vladimir Putin offered Ukraine an economic aid package worth $15 billion and a 33 percent discount on Russian natural gas in late December, angering protesters even more as they viewed this as a reward for pulling out of the European deal.

www.ibtimes.com...

Ukraine has always wanted to be part of the EU, but a certain neighbor puts enough pressure on them so they don't sign.

Samuel Charap

Background: Prior to joining the Institute, Samuel was a Council on Foreign Relations International Affairs Fellow at the US Department of State...He is a Term Member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

www.iiss.org...

What a surprise ?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

Ukraine even threatened to take the gas during Winter.

And where exactly did you see or read that?

Right here for one:

Ukraine Threatens Oil and Gas Cut-Off in Russia Sanctions

Ukraine threatened to block Russian oil and gas supplies to Europe in new sanctions against Vladimir Putin’s government, which it blames for a separatist uprising that has ravaged the country’s east.

a reply to: Bassago

Actually Ukraine decided to go with Russia and the west couldn't let that stand so we instigated the overthrow of the democratically elected president and put in a puppet stooge we could control. And "Viola!" now Ukraine wants to join the EU. Go figure.

Actually Yanukovich had a right strategy in making. Having historical closeness to Russian package, he wanted to give Customs Union a try........at FIRST. In 2-3 years, if things would have not worked out, then he could have always packed the bags and walked out with better argument that Customs Union is not working as efficiently as the EU.

On his way out he could have given a signed guarantee that Kiev will NEVER join NATO or any alliance that is hostile to Russia.

There was another alternative in making also as per Moscow's proposal. Ukraine joins the Customs Union and after some time the whole Customs Union joins the EU with modified terms and conditions. Although EU did mention that such a scenario would not be possible BUT expanding the business to a $3-4 Trillion markets could have encouraged some modifications and upgrades etc.

It would have been a Happy Scenario for the WHOLE of Europe, with none of Customs Union members becoming a part of NATO.

However, the nosy Americans could not stand that. Then came the cookie lady and the fascists and rest is tanks, grads and artillery shelling.

True but sad. Cruel but very avoidable for those who cater to common human decencies.

a reply to: victor7

Yet we have Yanukovych stating Crimea was a part of Ukraine and always will be.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: victor7

Yet we have Yanukovych stating Crimea was a part of Ukraine and always will be.

Guess he was mistaken about that one. Still if he hadn't been driven out of the country Crimea probably would still belong to Ukraine.

a reply to: Bassago

You really are clueless arent you? First Wow where to even start ok NATO wasnt involved in the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan before you go there as well. The only thing NATO did in Iraq was train police and this was long after the fighting stopped. Now Ukraine they didnt decide to go with Russia Viktor Yanukovych made a last minute change of heart. Basically bribed by Putin after he already said he would sign the agreement with Europe. Your so clueless you dont know it was Russian Human Rights Commissioner Vladimir Lukin that brokered the deal trying to keep Victor in power. But there was also impeachment preceding started and this scared Viktor Yanukovych mostly because of embezzlement an investigation was started. See you bought into a myth you think the people in the streets somehow removed Viktor Yanukovych. Reality is he fled in the middle of the night to Russia. He was under no threat except exposure of all the money he stole. With him gone the parliament had to remove him from office and place a temporary replacement. And now we had the vote and the elected a new president.

Funny part is Putin was such as idiot he didnt realize Ukraine had already voted against Joining NATO but this bonehead attacks them and now all but guarantees they will if given the opportunity.Now As for people that think the reverse gas flow is going to save Ukraine its not. The Slovak pipeline is only a partial solution since it has a capacity of only 10 billion cubic meters a year, well below the 25 billion cubic meters per year the country needs to make up for Gazprom’s lost supplies.Now Ukraine is frantically trying to figure out an alternative it looks like there may be a possibility from Iran oddly enough. But reality is Ukraine may be able to replace the supply but i guarantee they will pay more in the short term.Now as fat as the legality of reverse gas flow since the gas supply is not solely provided to Europe than how can you tell which gas was Russia or from other countries. Ukraine could just as easily buy from other suppliers as well just takes time to build pipelines or a port making shipping it in more expensive,

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

www.iiss.org...

What a surprise ?

So can you dispute anything in that article...No.

What a surprise...

a reply to: Bassago

Right here for one:

Ukraine Threatens Oil and Gas Cut-Off in Russia Sanctions

You do understand the difference between blocking something and stealing something, because nowhere in that article does it say Ukraine is going to steal gas from Europe only block it...big difference.

Well maybe not in your mind, but there is a difference.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: victor7

Yet we have Yanukovych stating Crimea was a part of Ukraine and always will be.

The jerks in the republic of ireland also think northern ireland is part of Ireland, and always will be.

Same thing, different place.

I can list a lot of places where people thing one thing, but reality is another, just like Crimea and Ukraine.

a reply to: jajaja

Except in this case Crimea was not conquered by Ukraine. It became a part of Ukraine in the 1950's by the Soviet Government and was reaffirmed as Ukrainian territory by Boris Yeltsin when the USSR collapsed. He signed the documents recognizing Ukraine as a sovereign nation with intact boundaries - IE Crimea.

That again was reaffirmed when the US, Russia and Ukraine signed the agreement where Ukraine would give up its nukes in exchange for the protection of their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

originally posted by: Bassago
Oh yeah, sure they are. Just tell that to all the dead Iraqi citizens.

No problem.. I have no issues telling Iraqi citizens NATO is not involved in Iraq. The reason for that would be NATO is not involved in Iraq.

During the 2003 invasion Turkey invoked article 4 to consult on possible needs for security arrangements.
NATO supported Poland in their sector for stabilization in Iraq by providing experts.

NATO had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq.

Out of curiosity do you do any type of research before making claims?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jajaja

Except in this case Crimea was not conquered by Ukraine. It became a part of Ukraine in the 1950's by the Soviet Government and was reaffirmed as Ukrainian territory by Boris Yeltsin when the USSR collapsed. He signed the documents recognizing Ukraine as a sovereign nation with intact boundaries - IE Crimea.

That again was reaffirmed when the US, Russia and Ukraine signed the agreement where Ukraine would give up its nukes in exchange for the protection of their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

They probably got Yeltsin when he was drunk, which is usually anytime after 9am, even the US president always had to call him early before he started drinking.

The agreement was also to not INTERFERE in Ukraine's affairs, something that the US has been doing for a very long time. I am not saying Russia has not, I am saying that is something the US et al, have been doing also, and for long time and in a big way.

So, seems everybody broke that agreement with Ukraine, anyway, just youtube Ukraine and Democracy, these politicans are running around using everybody elses electronic voting cards. Punch ups in the governmetn are entertaining, rigging votes in parlament by abusing their electronic ID cards are not.

Anybody see a trend, Nazism in Germany, then after the war they all went to the West (mostly even though some went other places), and now today, Nazism is rising, even encouraged / supported / allowed to grow by the West (in Ukraine amongst other places) and Germany.

Somethings never die, they just reemerge from a different angle, this time more subtle but with the same intent.

Wars will never stop, until they own the world.

a reply to: jajaja

There are a few reasons they came West.

The Chief reason was Stalin was killing them left and right. What people do not realize is the USSR was never a signatory to any of the rules of war / Geneva conventions. Because of that Germany did not treat them under those treaties.

Secondly the USSR was pissed at Germany for backstabbing them in Operation Barbarossa.

If you are captured by the west you got a trial.
if you are captured by the USSR you got a bullet or sent to gulags in Siberia.

As for scientists both sides snagged them.

The other concept foreign to most people is how the west will allow political / everyday groups to express their opinions and beliefs provided they don't kill people.

Russia has her own background in this area so its safe to say your comments apply to both sides and not just the west. As an example the USSR executed 20,000 +/- Polish officers etc in the Kaitlyn Forest massacre. When the graves were discovered the USSR blamed the Nazis. Putin was the one who acknowledged the massacre on behalf of Russia since they were at fault.

While you may blame the west I will point out that Russia is home to 70k +/- self identifying Neo-Nazis - more than half the worlds population of neo nazis.


What we do see is putin using Hitlers playbook as well as Stalins.

Looks like the separatists have kept their part of the agreement and gone ahead with the prisoner release of Ukrainian soldiers. Now let's see if Poroshenko does the same. I'll bet he finds an excuse not to.

Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have released 1,200 prisoners, President Petro Poroshenko has said.

The releases followed Friday's ceasefire deal, he said, which included an exchange of prisoners.

He was speaking during a visit to the strategic south-eastern port city of Mariupol, which has come under shelling from pro-Russian rebels in recent days.

Rebels 'free 1,200 captives' - Poroshenko