the green flame

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
a reply to: yuppa

Wow, they really take this stuff seriously. I don't think I could ever sign a "lifetime" NDA In good conscience.

If it was a choice between dissapearring forever under a jail i d sign it in a minute. You have to pick your battles.

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
I'm thinking if someone maybe made a diary or Journal of their experiences with things like sketches and data/project designations and then sat on it for 30-50 years before releasing it, would they get in trouble? Would hauling a 60-80s year old person in handcuffs in front of a judge really look good for the DOD?

You'd be in trouble twice - keeping the diary is an offense, as is releasing it.

There are some projects that are still closely held after 30-50 years. Not a lot, but some. Taking a dump on them, if you were read onto it, can lead to execution after a hearing from a federal judge. Not even a jury trial. And they don't even have to announce it to the MSM.

Most projects will have declassed long before that, though.

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
a reply to: yuppa

Wow, they really take this stuff seriously. I don't think I could ever sign a "lifetime" NDA In good conscience.

They're pretty much ALL "lifetime" NDAs. Or at least they have the capability of being.

Most projects don't have hard termination dates on the NDAs. They persist eternally unless terminated. While they last, it can lead to weird, stupid side effects like the thing being in the news and you not being able to discuss it although everyone knows what's going on. Lately, there have been several popular books and websites you couldn't visit or purchase because it would involve you becoming privy to info outside your compartment. Even though everyone in the world knew.

If you're on the outside of the project, say you're contracted to one small component of the project and not privy to the bigger picture, you can sometimes negotiate a 5 year term date or one of those "if it becomes general knowledge your obligations terminate" or whathaveyou. Not often, though.

If you're on the inside of the project, forget it. Say you're actual project management staff, or a contractor that spans compartments, you are stuck with it forever, unless it declasses. That tends to happen automatically these days, unless it's a DOE project, which tends to be eternal, or one of 'those' projects.

a reply to: Bedlam

In the end it's taxpayer money, there should be 100% full disclosure after a certain time. Maybe 10 or even 15 or 20 years. It's a crime that brilliant young minds don't have new inspiration from a young age. The way I've experienced it most of the very best minds never blossom because they're never truly inspired by the bleeding edge tech that's out there but hidden from the general population. I think that non disclosure is a contributing factor to all the current social unrest in this country. People used to flock to science; now people flock to sports and pop culture.

I'm a believer in our need for secrecy, I also find it shameful that taxpayers are left in the dark while the money that pays for it is stolen from them year end and out with zilch to show for it. Let there be a limit on how long things can be secret.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

The problem is that programs 30 years old and more are still in use today.

originally posted by: Caughtlurking
a reply to: Bedlam

In the end it's taxpayer money, there should be 100% full disclosure after a certain time. Maybe 10 or even 15 or 20 years.

Well, EO13526 pretty much lays out how long you can classify things these days, BUT, there's a lot of outs that will keep a lot of secrets from ever seeing the light of day.

It's a crime that brilliant young minds don't have new inspiration from a young age. The way I've experienced it most of the very best minds never blossom because they're never truly inspired by the bleeding edge tech that's out there but hidden from the general population.

The real reason THERE is the media and the political forces driving it. When I was a kid, it was cool to work for NASA or various TLAs. Now it's all sports and entertainment crap, because they depict research as being evil.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I understand that. I'm also willing to bet that our near peer states and our allies have a reasonable idea of what they are(our black projects) and how they operate by now if they are 30+ years old. I'm willing to bet that they have certainty within probably 90%. The Russians have been doing it for years, they did steal our shuttle design and put out an even better product in a very short time. Only thing that killed the Buran project was the end of the Cold War I. The DoD wants funding and complain that we all call our senators to cut their funding, show us what we are paying for... There is valid fear to this type of organization they are running. Not to mention we don't know if it's all even a bluff, China and Russia certainly aren't scared of any of our black assets.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
a reply to: yuppa

Wow, they really take this stuff seriously. I don't think I could ever sign a "lifetime" NDA In good conscience.

They're pretty much ALL "lifetime" NDAs. Or at least they have the capability of being.

Most projects don't have hard termination dates on the NDAs. They persist eternally unless terminated. While they last, it can lead to weird, stupid side effects like the thing being in the news and you not being able to discuss it although everyone knows what's going on. Lately, there have been several popular books and websites you couldn't visit or purchase because it would involve you becoming privy to info outside your compartment. Even though everyone in the world knew.

If you're on the outside of the project, say you're contracted to one small component of the project and not privy to the bigger picture, you can sometimes negotiate a 5 year term date or one of those "if it becomes general knowledge your obligations terminate" or whathaveyou. Not often, though.

If you're on the inside of the project, forget it. Say you're actual project management staff, or a contractor that spans compartments, you are stuck with it forever, unless it declasses. That tends to happen automatically these days, unless it's a DOE project, which tends to be eternal, or one of 'those' projects.

I know DOE and NRO/NSA have exemptions for various reasons. If they can possibly disappear you(or your family) over disclosure for "Big things", I can see why there's such a scarcity of info. Although frankly not coming out into the light with some of the probable but "way out there" things like new-energy tech, Gravity manipulation, secret space fleets, ET cooperation....is criminal to the future of Human-kind in my opinion.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

Damn straight, if we've got all this great tech, and I'm sure our "peer" competitive nations know about some of it, we should flipping USE IT! If It saves American lives...What's the point of buying this stuff if we have things 10-100x better? I assume the United States has the capabilities to force All the worlds rogue nations and terrorist groups to their KNEES, BEGGING FOR MERCY.

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
a reply to: Caughtlurking

Damn straight, if we've got all this great tech, and I'm sure our "peer" competitive nations know about some of it, we should flipping USE IT! If It saves American lives...What's the point of buying this stuff if we have things 10-100x better? I assume the United States has the capabilities to force All the worlds rogue nations and terrorist groups to their KNEES, BEGGING FOR MERCY.

Reason why? because it gives them reason for a pre emptive strike on the US.

originally posted by: Caughtlurking
a reply to: Bedlam

In the end it's taxpayer money

I have a feeling there are ways around that. What if it is the contractor's money being spent? What it the project isn't "officially" connected to the DOD/Military? What if money is made "on the side" leasing/selling technology patents? I could see some "creative accounting" being done to keep taxpayer money out of the most secret projects in existence.

a reply to: Bedlam

Idk how I missed your post; I agree the media is driving it and maybe also poor parenting. I think that if kids could see some of the amazing things our engineers are supposedly doing it could inspire them greatly. Remember the human mind is the most impressionable at a young age and a fueled imagination could hold the answers to some barriers we can't break as of yet. Ideas when your young turn into mathematical answers when your old and wise I believe. This green lady could really steal attention away from the media shepherds who want everyone to be in their flock.

Next bit of deep reading tonight:eo13526. Thanks for the way marker. I always accepted the curtain for what it is without looking at the rings holding it up. Need to change that.

a reply to: yuppa

There is no such thing as an unanswered preemptive strike on the U.S. The Ohio class makes certain of that.

a reply to: johnthejedi24

Sometimes they will intentionally drop glimpses of things to come into the Mens Publica, or it seems that way.

But for the most part they'll get pissy even for small stuff, DOD had a book burning or two in recent years over stuff I'm pretty sure I posted here and no-one even commented on. You never know what will hack them off.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

I wanted to grow up to be Scotty. I just about managed it.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

The Ohio's and the Trident system don't get nearly as much fanfare as they should. The boats were and still are the B-2 stealth bombers of the seas, and the missiles themselves were such a quantum leap beyond previous SLBM's that they changed the face of US nuclear deterrent policy forever.

There's a reason why the MX was killed without any protest, and that's because the Trident could hit the exact same CEP's, and from a borderline undetectable launch point as well. Trident was and still is the nightmare-inducing first-strike system that more or less ended the cold war. Everything the Soviets developed after 1980 was part of a mad dash to make up for the lost ground that Trident created, and everything the US built after 1980 was simply icing on the cake compared to what Trident brought to the table.

/rant

originally posted by: Bedlam

Well, EO13526 pretty much lays out how long you can classify things these days, BUT, there's a lot of outs that will keep a lot of secrets from ever seeing the light of day.

After reading through that extremely long document that manages to run in complete circles I'd have to say it's a nice attempt at making the populace feel comfortable; however, it leaves all the decision making process to either career politicians or bureaucrats. It even go so far that the ceiling limit can be broken with nothing more than the swipe of a pen by one of these guys. Basically it's a bunch of rhetoric that the Obama administration has proven its very good at puking out with no results in sight.

www.tailsthroughtime.com...


This is interesting.

GE led the way in boron HEF research in jet engines, operating a modified J79 turbojet engine at NASA's Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory to run on boron HEF. Calculations showed that if boron HEF were used only in the afterburners along with regular JP-class fuels, a range increase of 16% was possible.

And I'm imagining something that looks a little like one of these.

Very 60,s that design..XB70ish but i think the Sr71 evolved into another platform.

a reply to: grey580

Thats a BEAST of a plane right there!