Oh... Finally NY Times Discovers Neo-Nazis In Ukraine

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And where exactly does it say he was in politics in that article?

и руководитель общественной организации "Европейский выбор" Павел Губарев

"...and the head of the NGO "European choice" Paul Gubarev..."

NGO? Maybe he was financed by Nuland (Kagan) USrael too, as other neo-nazi EUkrainians?

It is not RT, but The Telegraph.

Ukrai ne crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists

Almost forgot the picture of ukrainian junta leaders:

a reply to: Bassago

So when taking part in many of the threads on the war in Ukraine I cannot count the number of times I've been told:
There are no Neo-Nazis in Ukraine!!!

You cannot count to zero? No-one has ever claimed that there are no neo-nazis in Ukraine. They are a minority in the West, but a majority among the pro-Russian separatists.

a reply to: maghun

Almost forgot the picture of ukrainian junta leaders:

Aren't you getting tired of posting that same picture of a Jew waving to a crowd in order to trick people into thinking he is a Nazi? As you know, this is what a real neo-Nazi looks like:

a reply to: Bassago
just want to add Novorossiya: People’s Militia Address to the Europeans with subtitles
www.youtube.com...
good site for the sad truth
slavyangrad.org...

originally posted by: cahal
a reply to: Bassago
just want to add Novorossiya: People’s Militia Address to the Europeans with subtitles
www.youtube.com...
good site for the sad truth
slavyangrad.org...

I'm confused. On the one hand they are saying that the villages are empty and there is no humanitarian crisis, on the other, they are saying the Ukrainians are killing their people. They ask how Ukraine can afford to repair the infrastructure, but they don't explain how a tiny "republic" will be able to repair its infrastructure. They accuse former Warsaw Pact countries of supporting Ukraine as though having been in the Warsaw Pact makes a country evil. They then imply that, somehow, Ukraine intends to go to war with Europe! Pathetic attempt at manipulation.

a reply to: DJW001

They are a minority in the West, but a majority among the pro-Russian separatists.

Right, got it, minority, tiny. They are a minority that's been sanctioned by Kiev with the subtle approval of the west and have now deployed in militias outside of Donetsk. From there and after the Ukraine military bombards the hell out of civilian areas with artillery the Neo-Nazis (like the Azov Battalion) make lightning attacks on the urban areas.

So you think sanctioning them is a good thing apparently. Okaaay.

Again, this thread isn't about the separatists, Putin or Russians.

a reply to: Bassago

Right, got it, minority, tiny. They are a minority that's been sanctioned by Kiev with the subtle approval of the west and have now deployed in militias outside of Donetsk. From there and after the Ukraine military bombards the hell out of civilian areas with artillery the Neo-Nazis (like the Azov Battalion) make lightning attacks on the urban areas.

Militias are militias. Neither the United States nor EU sanction the militias. If Kyiv wants to employ them, that's their business.

So you think sanctioning them is a good thing apparently. Okaaay.

Where do I say sanctioning them is a good thing? In fact, I generally end discussions of the far right groups with a wish that they would shrivel up and go away as the people's socio-political-economic situation improves.

Again, this thread isn't about the separatists, Putin or Russians.

It's about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, isn't it? How can you discuss Neo-Nazis in Ukraine without looking at the Russian skinheads holed up in Donetsk?

a reply to: DJW001

Militias are militias. Neither the United States nor EU sanction the militias. If Kyiv wants to employ them, that's their business.

We are sanctioning Kiev and they is sanctioning the Neo-Nazi militias. That makes the west complicit. I'm sure the EU and US are trying to formulate some plan on ousting them with NATO troops and mercenaries as soon as they can. Doubt Kiev will like that much though I'm sure they'll be willing to throw them under the bus as soon as they crush western resistance.

It's about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, isn't it? How can you discuss Neo-Nazis in Ukraine without looking at the Russian skinheads holed up in Donetsk?

The links in the OP were discussing the pro-Kiev militias being used against the eastern population. There was another thread about the pro-Russian skinheads to discuss that aspect of the problem.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Bassago

So the Times is no longer "blinded" by the light of Aryan truth shining in the dark like a pile of burning tires. in front of a burning building, filled with burning people.

Our grandfathers fought against these cretins and nowadays our government reps are seeking photo ops with them.

For shame…

it says right in the article that the government of Kiev says it's only one group....AZOV its called...controlled by one local commander. Kiev is trying to distance itself from this one group, it does not represent the Ukraine military.....American reps, as you call them, are not seeking photo ops with them. don't make up crap, it's becoming all too familiar in your posts.

a reply to: DJW001

They are a minority in the West, but a majority among the pro-Russian separatists.

But that "minority" holds the chair of Minister of Defense, among other high ranking positions.

a reply to: jimmyx

it says right in the article that the government of Kiev says it's only one group....AZOV its called...controlled by one local commander. Kiev is trying to distance itself from this one group

Of course they are *nudge, nudge*, *wink, wink*"

But they would say that wouldn't they. How about they actually reign them in and disarm them as an act of good faith? Stop giving them legitimacy from the Ukraine army (and by extension Kiev) using them as urban shock troops after each artillery barrage.

Oh they need to crush the east first, right.

a reply to: Bassago

The links in the OP were discussing the pro-Kiev militias being used against the eastern population. There was another thread about the pro-Russian skinheads to discuss that aspect of the problem.

Neo-Nazis are Neo-Nazis and Eastern and Western Ukraine are both Ukraine.

a reply to: DJW001

Considering how you and others in the the Ukraine threads keep referring to the people of eastern Ukraine as pro-Russians, kinda nice to see u admit that they are actually Ukrainian, therefore the government of Ukraine has been murdering its own people.

Glad to see see you finally saw the light!!!

a reply to: donhuangenaro

Well, there are a higher percent of them in the Russian parliament than in the Ukrainian one. Plus, for those that are afraid of Mr. P's expansionist policies - he is a sympathizer if not an enabler too.

Not all nationalists are Nazis, but all Nazis are nationalists. So Russian Nazis would logically say Ukrainians are all bad, and the reverse. That is only logical. Truth is, either "side" loses credit with me as soon as it starts to deny the obvious: that there ARE a significant amount of Nazi sympathizers overall (20-30% of people in some Eastern European countries). Pravy Sector is not alone. I don't see however, contrary to what the OP suggests, that posters here critical of Putin actually denied that.

What many of us objected to was that the mere fact of the presence of some neo-Nazis in Ukraine would be justification for an imperial rundown of the whole country by the "rebels" backed by the Russian state. Hungary has its far right/neo-Nazi Party too, Jobbik, voted by 20% of the people and having EU representation too. Jobbik is even shunned by the likes of LePen in the EU because they are openly racist. No one would say that tanks should roll over Hungary due to its neo-NAzi minority. That would be going too far. The EU threatens to withdraw funds and some people do not associate with them or actively protest their presence, that is all.

I do not have the impression that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis have power over the government, whough some people there might sympathize with them.

Naturally, the EU countries etc. - whoever supports the new Ukraine - should demand that the UA gov't try to gain control of these folks and issue declarations that it is disassociated from whatever they do instead of aiding and abetting them. In this I think the OP and those on his side are maximally correct. (It would be nice to have specific demans worded though).

I agree with dragonrider's argument though on the previous page that all over Eastern Europe, neo-Nazi and far right groups have been gaining ground (partly) because of the overwhelming economic pressure. I think this is fundamental, and I don't see any reason to disregard it.

Sometimes one type is worse, sometimes another.
Gather facts, photos, symbols, insignia etc. It isn't pretty at all.

Neo-Nazism is illegal in Germany and formally it is in Hungary too - one country West from Ukraine and one notch better off. This is not really enforced though. However, while the Azov guys the OP writes about openly display their symbols (which allude to the Black Sun and such), Hungarian Nazis are far subtler. They would have to be, Hungary is already a member of the EU. They would openly debate that they would be racist. Skilts and Azovians would probably not. They would be proud of it.

Hungarian Jobbik (openly supported financially and in social capital by Russian far rigthists, interestingly) would just "point out the truth" that Gypsies are taking over the country of average Christian (meaning white) folks, while naturally "Jews and liberals" control the media" (plus generally the whole world). Jobbik tacitly supported the racially motivated murders of several innocent Gypsies in peacetime (2009) and many of the worst inciters of racial violence and hatred are its members.

The question is - is there anti-Gypsy or anti-Semitic rhetoric on the part of the Azovian Nazis? All we know so far is that they all hate Russians on an ethnic basis. Any facts backed up on racially motivated crimes? Or are they simply part of an ethnic war (whic h does not justify their insignia or their rhetoric)?

Hungarian far right's link to Putin

a reply to: DJW001

As you know, this is what a real neo-Nazi looks like:

Yes it is...



But for some reason this gets looked over...Imagine that.

a reply to: alphacenturi

Considering how you and others in the the Ukraine threads keep referring to the people of eastern Ukraine as pro-Russians, kinda nice to see u admit that they are actually Ukrainian, therefore the government of Ukraine has been murdering its own people.

You do know they are called pro Russians because they consider themselves Russian, although they are Ukraine. Nobody has ever denied they are Ukraine except for the one's Russia placed there.

Ukraine is not intentionally killing civilians, but when separatists are hiding among the civilians the reality of war is some will die.

And no I do not advocate the killing of civilians...just in case someone doesn't understand my reply.

a reply to: Kokatsi

Very well said. Thank you for your post.

The question is - is there anti-Gypsy or anti-Semitic rhetoric on the part of the Azovian Nazis? All we know so far is that they all hate Russians on an ethnic basis. Any facts backed up on racially motivated crimes?

Here's a bit from the Telegraph article I linked earlier. Apparently the commander of the Azov battalion was to be tried earlier for attempted murder but was (somehow) released. Not sure if he wants to wipe out the Gypsies though, at least not if they are white (enough) Gypsies.

The 35-year old commander began creating the battalion after he was released from pre-trial detention in February in the wake of pro-western protests in Kiev. He had denied a charge of attempted murder, claiming it was politically motivated.

A former history student and amateur boxer, Mr Biletsky [Azov commander] is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”
Link. .

a reply to: Bassago

A long time ago, I was reading up on the actual Neo-Nazis (as in they base their group on the Nazi philosophies) in Ukraine and I remember talking on threads where people thought I just meant ultra-right wing. But no, I was being specific.

It's no accident that these groups insignias look like swastikas, either, they chose the design based on their philosophical preferences.

Thanks for the thread, Bassago.

a reply to: darkbake

Hey Darkbake good to hear from you. Yeah there is a definite difference between the nationalists and the Neo-Nazis. While I consider myself a nationalist for the USA that belief includes all American citizens regardless of belief or color, etc. The Neo-Nazis on the other hand seem to be white supremacists first and nationalists second.. or third.

originally posted by: Bassago
I'm thinking you must have asked me that as a test. The Nazis were bad Charles, our forefathers died to stop them. We should not support them in any way, remember the Waffen SS. That's my opinion. Peace.

You are of course aware that isn't a Nazi symbol? It's from Germanic heraldry and is in use on various coats of arms from around Germany right now - the only reason it is associated with Nazism is out of ignorance.

Many Officers in the German Wehrmacht and SS would have been from aristocratic stock, which is probably how it came to be used by certain units in the War, but it pre-dates Nazism by several centuries - much like the Swastika.

As for the OP claims of denying any far-right groups, I have not seen anyone do this. What we have denied is that they are running the "Junta", as some like to call it. The Government only had 4 far-right MP's (from Svoboda who are, whether you like it or not, a democratically elected Party in parliament with 12% of the vote) in the Cabinet out of 20 Ministerial positions