Scottish Independance & Possible Huge Oil Discovery

a reply to: midicon

The rest of the UK should be a concern for Scotland. Friends, neighbours, allies, relatives, history and all that goes with it. Independence is not about any of that.

I recognise that, I fear many don't.

There are some politicians looking forward to change in Westminster.

Its certainly needed and well overdue.
Our current electoral and legislative processes are outdated, self-serving and not fit for purpose.
There are so few politicians of conviction nowadays....the one's that are there are driven out or are ostracised and marginalised to such an extent that they have little or zero input and influence.
Party politics has past its sell by date.

All I am saying Freeborn is that this is not just an opportunity for Scotland, it may bring some needed change in England. Nothing else is on the horizon.

In the result of a 'Yes' success nothing much will change in rUK, certainly not for the ordinary man in the street.
A convincing 'No' vote will result in nothing but a continuance of the status quo - and we all know whose interests that serves.
A narrow victory will probably result in Devo-max for Scotland and that may, and I repeat MAY, result in a move towards more devolved power to all the regions.

The truth is no one really knows what independence will bring, that is why it is a risk for us.

And for me that would be the crux of the matter - too many doubts.
Its just too much of a leap in the dark.
I personally wouldn't gamble with my children / grandchildren's etc futures whilst there were so many unanswered questions and uncertainties.

If the UK underwrites our currency then they will benefit not us.

Unless of course it all goes tits up.
In which case it will be the everyday people in rUK who will pay the price. And why should they bear the burden if something goes wrong in an independent Scotland?

The money men in the City of London will see to that. I have complete faith in their financial ruthlessness.

Of course they will bear the fruit of any success story - but as is evident with the austerity cuts, when it all goes tits up due to their incompetence and over-powering greed the buck gets passed to us poor buggers.

Now I'm not saying it'll all go wrong for an independent Scotland, in fact I think given a fair shot of things, (and I doubt that'll happen), I'm fairly certain you'd make a fair go of things - but what if things do go pear shaped?
Who pays the price then?
And what happens then?

I have no sense of patriotism, nor do I like borders, so for me it is all about political change.

That at least is something I can fully understand and respect - but unfortunately for far too many it seems to be more about misguided notions of liberty and freedom from the bastard oppressor and a belief in some sort of halcyon land of milk and honey in a post-independent Scotland.

If we vote for independence then this is the time for the English people to raise their voice and call for change for themselves.

But that won't happen my friend - at least not until we are well and truly backed into a corner at which point we have a tendency to strike quite fiercely and ruthlessly.

a reply to: Freeborn

Its certainly needed and well overdue.
There are so few politicians of conviction nowadays....the one's that are there are driven out or are ostracised and marginalised to such an extent that they have little or zero input and influence.
Party politics has past its sell by date.

I can't fault the logic there but if party politics has had it's day then someone forgot to tell the politicians. They also forgot to tell Joe public who it seems is hell bent on voting for the mainstream parties. I am not as astute regarding politics as you but I at least can see that the whole set up is wrong.

In the result of a 'Yes' success nothing much will change in rUK, certainly not for the ordinary man in the street.
A convincing 'No' vote will result in nothing but a continuance of the status quo - and we all know whose interests that serves.
A narrow victory will probably result in Devo-max for Scotland and that may, and I repeat MAY, result in a move towards more devolved power to all the regions.

It would seem from what you say that you regard a narrow no vote as perhaps the best outcome all round. At least for you it would offer the best opportunity for change in England. I'm not so sure it will work out like that in reality. A narrow vote may lead to unrest here in Scotland...and to be honest I am not so interested in Devo-max or devolved power under the current Westminster government. It is something I will read up on.

And for me that would be the crux of the matter - too many doubts.
Its just too much of a leap in the dark.
I personally wouldn't gamble with my children / grandchildren's etc futures whilst there were so many unanswered questions and uncertainties.

It is the crux of the matter for me too...and I have doubts. I don't think the gamble is so great, the no campaign has centred on the negatives and they are not as bad as all that. On the other hand how shall we explain our lack of courage to our children and grandchildren as they live under the same political set up as we do? If it all goes pear shaped then at least we tried. In fact this is the very reason I support independence. I can see out my life under this status quo, my situation is fine...it is for those to come that I make this call. It goes two ways Freeborn.

Unless of course it all goes tits up.
In which case it will be the everyday people in rUK who will pay the price. And why should they bear the burden if something goes wrong in an independent Scotland?

No one is asking the rest of the UK to bear the burden. If our currency is underwritten by the Bank of England then there will be no real danger to anyone, they will be calling the shots. It is not something I want and for me it makes a mockery of the whole idea of independence. Perhaps in the short term it is a good idea.
And you say 'why should they bear the burden'?' Friends, neighbours, allies, relatives and history are perhaps some of the reasons that you would be willing to help an independent Scotland. It is not even our call anyway, it is down to the politicians and bankers.

Now I'm not saying it'll all go wrong for an independent Scotland, in fact I think given a fair shot of things, (and I doubt that'll happen), I'm fairly certain you'd make a fair go of things - but what if things do go pear shaped?
Who pays the price then?
And what happens then?

I agree that given a fair shot of things we will probably do well, one drawback might be that Westminster will do all in it's power to make it as difficult as possible. Not because they care for the people left in the UK but for its own agenda.
Who pays the price and what happens next might be really down to Westminster not the people of Scotland. Don't forget if it does end badly it is we Scots that will suffer the most. It is good that we have this opportunity to re-evaluate our membership of the UK, it has been a long time coming. Perhaps the English people should be calling for a referendum of their own...I would support that call...but in all honesty the UK really is England.

That at least is something I can fully understand and respect - but unfortunately for far too many it seems to be more about misguided notions of liberty and freedom from the bastard oppressor and a belief in some sort of halcyon land of milk and honey in a post-independent Scotland.

There are a lot of singing short bread tins up here. Even some of the no supporters I have spoken to come out with some of the most ridiculous things. At least for once we have some sort of political change on the horizon. I think it will be a close call with the no's having it. I don't think we are oppressed by the English you are in the same boat as us. After independence fails we can talk about a plan B, something surely has to give in this political climate.

Regards Midicon.

a reply to: midicon

I can't fault the logic there but if party politics has had it's day then someone forgot to tell the politicians.

The electoral and legislative processes are interwoven with the party system and are self-perpetuating.
Politicians have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

I could rattle on forever about the lack of accountability and unrepresentative and amoral nature of the current system and where party line or profit always takes precedence over the cares and concerns and even best interests of the electorate, but that's not what this thread is about.

They also forgot to tell Joe public who it seems is hell bent on voting for the mainstream parties.

They are brainwashed into accepting that there is no other viable alternative to the current system - once over it really annoyed me, nowadays I think I've become reluctantly resigned to it....but that doesn't alter my outrage and opposition.

Me?
I would like to see a Direct Democratic system implemented along with the power of recall, zero party affiliation, devolved power to the regions, increased use of referendums at local, regional and national level, staggered elections etc....but again, that's for another time and place I think.

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It would seem from what you say that you regard a narrow no vote as perhaps the best outcome all round. At least for you it would offer the best opportunity for change in England.

Well that's it - just as Scotland must be selfish and think of what would be best for Scotland, I personally have tried to think what would be the best outcome for me here in North East England. And for various reasons I think a close victory for the 'No' vote would be best for us.

I'm not so sure it will work out like that in reality. A narrow vote may lead to unrest here in Scotland.....

I think there's going to be a certain amount of bitter recrimination no matter what the outcome is - it seems the debate has brought about some deep seated differences of opinion.

...and to be honest I am not so interested in Devo-max or devolved power under the current Westminster government. It is something I will read up on.

I think Devo-max has been Salmond's aim all along - it offers Scotland the best of both world's.
And I think that could be the catalyst for devolved power to all the regions.
There has recently been a resurgence in public support for increased devolved power for N.E. England despite the overwhelming 'No' vote in the referendum held in 2004. (That whole affair was a complete farce - it was amazingly unreported and publicised and what debate that did occur was as biased and one-sided as could possibly be).

It is the crux of the matter for me too...and I have doubts. I don't think the gamble is so great, the no campaign has centred on the negatives and they are not as bad as all that.

Just the same as the 'Yes' campaign has concentrated on the positives and simply ignored and refused to even discuss any possible negatives.
The campaigns have mirrored each other in this and in several other things - two sides of the same coin methinks.

On the other hand how shall we explain our lack of courage to our children and grandchildren as they live under the same political set up as we do? If it all goes pear shaped then at least we tried.

And if it all goes wrong what will they say then?
Do you think they'll just sit back and say 'Oh well. at least they tried'?

In fact this is the very reason I support independence. I can see out my life under this status quo, my situation is fine...it is for those to come that I make this call.

Just as I admire your desire for positive political change I can also appreciate those sentiments.

It goes two ways Freeborn.

As do most things in life.

No one is asking the rest of the UK to bear the burden. If our currency is underwritten by the Bank of England then there will be no real danger to anyone, they will be calling the shots. It is not something I want and for me it makes a mockery of the whole idea of independence. Perhaps in the short term it is a good idea.

As you know, I too think its a farce that a fledgling independent country would want to be wholly reliant on a currency it had absolutely no control or even influence over.
But the markets are already getting nervous and Sterling is falling - imagine what will happen if Scotland votes yes?
And imagine what will happen if say RBS fails again in a post-independent Scotland - why should rUK taxpayers be burdened by such a thing?

It is not even our call anyway, it is down to the politicians and bankers.

Very true.

I agree that given a fair shot of things we will probably do well, one drawback might be that Westminster will do all in it's power to make it as difficult as possible.

Again, I'm sure you're aware of the contempt I have for Westminster, but if this were true and 'they' are so evil, bitter and vindictive why are they letting the referendum take place in the first place?

Not because they care for the people left in the UK but for its own agenda.

Oh, I know they have little care for the well being of 'the people' but what exactly would be their agenda in such circumstances?

It is good that we have this opportunity to re-evaluate our membership of the UK, it has been a long time coming.

Maybe it is overdue - but it has been acknowledged by both sides that previously there hadn't been enough dupport to warrant a full referendum - not sure if that's right or not but....?

Its certainly refreshing and welcoming to see genuine democracy - maybe the system isn't quite as rotten and self-serving as we believe.....or maybe they know something we don't?

Perhaps the English people should be calling for a referendum of their own...I would support that call...

I've mentioned my belief in more referendums but many people would just view them as an inconvenience that gets in the way of Coronation Street, Loose Women and X-Factor.

At least for once we have some sort of political change on the horizon. I think it will be a close call with the no's having it. I don't think we are oppressed by the English you are in the same boat as us. After independence fails we can talk about a plan B, something surely has to give in this political climate.

Regardless of the outcome I think some sort of change is inevitable - lets just hope its for the good.

a reply to: Freeborn

I realise this conversation could go on and on, and be off topic.

There has recently been a resurgence in public support for increased devolved power for N.E. England despite the overwhelming 'No' vote in the referendum held in 2004.

I didn't know there had been a referendum on that issue.

But the markets are already getting nervous and Sterling is falling - imagine what will happen if Scotland votes yes?
And imagine what will happen if say RBS fails again in a post-independent Scotland - why should rUK taxpayers be burdened by such a thing?

I am a bit radical concerning those issues...and perhaps a little simplistic. I couldn't care less if the markets have a fit. I would be happy to stand in bread queues for a decade if it would lead to real change. I don't know the situation with RBS, it is after all mostly owned by UK taxpayers. It may be one of those things we have to negotiate. If RBS fails in an independent Scotland we will have to deal with it. If it were up to me I would do what should have been done to all those banks back in 2008.

The markets are all rigged anyway and the fat cats love a nervous market.

Again, I'm sure you're aware of the contempt I have for Westminster, but if this were true and 'they' are so evil, bitter and vindictive why are they letting the referendum take place in the first place?

I don't know about those terms 'bitter and vindictive'. I prefer ruthless and corrupt. I am sure Cameron and his ilk would prefer not to have a referendum, I could be wrong though. Perhaps ultimately they could not stop it. I have never used that word 'evil'...but some of those people would happily sell their grannies for a fiver. They think nothing of bombing innocents. I can recall those Tories hissing 'traitor' after the failed vote on invading Syria.

Oh, I know they have little care for the well being of 'the people' but what exactly would be their agenda in such circumstances?

I suppose their agenda would be whatever serves them best and it is always self serving.

It may turn out in an independent Scotland that there will be no gain without pain and if our pain gives you pain then that too can be a catalyst for change for you.

Or something like that...

Regards Midicon.

I see the front page of The Scottish Sun today says 'frack to the future'. Inside there is a two page spread detailing a think tanks report on viable oil reserves and possible revenue.

The collumnist Bill Leckie. an ardent no supporter has now switched his views and will support the yes campaign. Giving reasons similar to my own for his stance. That is...for the children of today.

They also carry a story on the betting that has been going on up and down the country and the odds given. If we were to go by that then independence is a goer. However bearing in mind that there is some risk involved then perhaps gamblers are not the best guide to popular opiniion. In Scotland 89% of all bets were for a yes result. Odds are yes 11/4...no 1/4.

I have no interest in gambling...just thought I'd throw that stuff in.

a reply to: midicon
The Sun likes to be on the winning side so a Las minute editorial switch is not impossible.
Do you have a link/source for the 89% betting figure. (Not in a normal ATS don't believe you without a link sense but a genuine would like a look sense)

a reply to: ScepticScot

My only source for that post is the sun although it seems to read genuine. It gives a breakdown of data from William Hill betting shops from all over Scotland, showing how the various regions are gambling. The statistics show different for the UK as a whole with the yes punters on 67% but the no's have gambled more money overall. So the statistics are showing individual bets rather than amounts gambled.

ETA...I can post a list if you like, it's quite interesting. It also says that, since the second TV debate 91% of the bets have been placed in Scotland and the majority have gone to 'yes'.

It's Looking Good for a Yes vote right at this moment, but as they say..A week is a long time in Politics...

With the Media and the BBC's help the No camp will win and Scotland will lose.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

This is the right time to have a move towards the yes camp and I think we need this fortnight for the momentum to gather. A lot can happen in a week, as you say, but it is the no campaign that is on the back foot.
If something like the rumoured scandal in Wesminster breaks out then it would tip the balance.

I have never thought that independence was possible, even though it has my vote, but now that the time is approaching, more and more I see it as achievable. Perhaps change is in the air.

a reply to: midicon
I think People are asking the questions if we are so much Better together, then why are we £1.4 trillion in debt, why are there Foodbanks, why are tens of thousands on zero hour contract,
why are kids being forced to work for free in places such as Poundland and charity shops and various other private companies,
Why did we break international law and invade two foreign countries, why are we spending over 100 million on hideous weapons of mass destruction when the NHS is being privatised behind our backs,
Why is Oil and Gas such a burden for us, but countries world wide would give their eye teeth for such a resource on their own patch.

Westminster has been caught out. they pulled the wool over everyones eyes in 79.

It took a freedom of information act 30 years on to reveal the content of the McCrone report..Shocking...Fool me once.

Fingers crossed the Media flips to the Yes Side as they have been Pro Union as far as i can see....I wont hold my breath though.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: midicon
I think People are asking the questions if we are so much Better together, then why are we £1.4 trillion in debt, why are there Foodbanks, why are tens of thousands on zero hour contract,
why are kids being forced to work for free in places such as Poundland and charity shops and various other private companies,
Why did we break international law and invade two foreign countries, why are we spending over 100 million on hideous weapons of mass destruction when the NHS is being privatised behind our backs,
Why is Oil and Gas such a burden for us, but countries world wide would give their eye teeth for such a resource on their own patch.

Westminster has been caught out. they pulled the wool over everyones eyes in 79.

It took a freedom of information act 30 years on to reveal the content of the McCrone report..Shocking...Fool me once.

Fingers crossed the Media flips to the Yes Side as they have been Pro Union as far as i can see....I wont hold my breath though.

Pardon me for adding my piece, but the NHS isn't being privatised, but may use private companies where it more cost effective to do so, has done for years around cleaning and catering - why are you acting as Salmonds mouthpiece?

Sol, I honestly think whatever happens will happen and wish Scotland the best in either scenario, but please, don't just use rhetoric that even Salmond couldn't put any facts or figures to as justification. It's not fair on you, your country or the rest of the UK to do that.

Are there foodbanks in Scotland, even though Scotland manages its own budget and according to how the Barnett formula allows greater amount to be available in Scotland than the rest of UK? Yes, there are. Are you ensuring full time, profitable employment for everyone in Scotland with a Scottish government? No, sadly not.

Don't think I'm a rabid 'no' voter, as I live south of the border and we don't have the option to actually express an opinion, but rhetoric is never as good as facts.

Breaking the international law though...... that was pushed through by a guy born in Scotland, not England.

a reply to: uncommitted
Not Privatising the NHS??...Really!.
Me?, Salmonds Mouthpiece??..Really!!

At Least have the decency to call him by his first name or title....either Alex of First Minister or a simple Mr will do.

You sir are a Dreamer, a man with his head firmly in the sand. Either that or you are a Tory/Labour/LibDem/UKIP Westminster, Better Together Mouthpiece..???

Here,... Read this then get back to me. And dont bother getting back if you dont read it.
Dont worry though if you cant read it, i truly understand...
I was the same. it turned my stomach a few paragraphs in also.

You still dont get it, do you??????
Why we want Rid of Them...

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
It's Looking Good for a Yes vote right at this moment, but as they say..A week is a long time in Politics...

With the Media and the BBC's help the No camp will win and Scotland will lose.

When it finally comes to putting that X on that ballot slip, that is when people will really make up their minds one way or another which way to vote.
I have lost count how many times my heart has ruled my head when the actual moment comes to placing my vote. I went into the polling both convinced i would vote for a party i have never voted for before as a form of protest. Then at that crucial second the pen goes to paper, the X goes into the box of my traditional party.
Funny thing really the way people cast their vote. It's always a head and heart situation.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: uncommitted
Not Privatising the NHS??...Really!.
Me?, Salmonds Mouthpiece??..Really!!

At Least have the decency to call him by his first name or title....either Alex of First Minister or a simple Mr will do.

You sir are a Dreamer, a man with his head firmly in the sand. Either that or you are a Tory/Labour/LibDem/UKIP Westminster, Better Together Mouthpiece..???

Here,... Read this then get back to me. And dont bother getting back if you dont read it.
Dont worry though if you cant read it, i truly understand...
I was the same. it turned my stomach a few paragraphs in also.

You still dont get it, do you??????
Why we want Rid of Them...

Sorry mate, just more and more rhetoric, and I don't take politically orientated blogs as fact, or as a reason why an independent Scotland would be different, but that is my choice - I don't have a vote, you do. You really do nothing to tell me anything, but assuming you live in Scotland, it's your choice what to do in 2 weeks time, hope you make a difference and you are happy with the consequence whatever that may be. Please stop saying Westminster mouthpiece as you assume that everyone in Scotland is happy with whatever comes out of Holyrood.

I'll call Salmond by another title when people on here don't address President Obama by his surname only or Cameron by his. Sheesh, we are defensive aren't we?

a reply to: uncommitted
Are you saying what's in the blog is not fact.?

a reply to: uncommitted
Welfare and taxation are both reserved for Westminster so yes there are food banks in Scotland at the moment and where the blame lies is pretty clear.

a reply to: midicon
Thanks. If trying to judge anything about voting intentions then number of bets rather than size is important. I think the combination of the second debate and the BT campaigns worst ever political advert have definitely made a difference particularly with female voters.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: midicon
I think People are asking the questions if we are so much Better together, then why are we £1.4 trillion in debt, why are there Foodbanks, why are tens of thousands on zero hour contract,
why are kids being forced to work for free in places such as Poundland and charity shops and various other private companies,
Why did we break international law and invade two foreign countries, why are we spending over 100 million on hideous weapons of mass destruction when the NHS is being privatised behind our backs,
Why is Oil and Gas such a burden for us, but countries world wide would give their eye teeth for such a resource on their own patch.

Westminster has been caught out. they pulled the wool over everyones eyes in 79.

It took a freedom of information act 30 years on to reveal the content of the McCrone report..Shocking...Fool me once.

Fingers crossed the Media flips to the Yes Side as they have been Pro Union as far as i can see....I wont hold my breath though.

Are there foodbanks in Scotland, even though Scotland manages its own budget and according to how the Barnett formula allows greater amount to be available in Scotland than the rest of UK? Yes, there are. Are you ensuring full time, profitable employment for everyone in Scotland with a Scottish government? No, sadly not.


Breaking the international law though...... that was pushed through by a guy born in Scotland, not England.

once we gain independence and the Oil and Gas revenue stays in Scotland Foodbanks will be a thing of the past, employment will be up, and WMD will be gone... we can only do so much with the pocket money Westminster gives us.
I here this argument that Scotland get more back than they actually sends down, these figures are heavily distorted by the Nawbags...The Gas and Oil revenue is never ever included in that figure, add that to the equation and we get a helluva lot less than we hand over to London.

Hopefully on the 19th after we gain Independence Westminster Will need a plan B...Hold us to ransom over the pound??...I know who will be held to ransom after the 18th and it wont be Scotland.
George "no qualifications for the job he's doing" Osbourne will need to get his Abacus out and seriously have a look at What Independence for Scotland means for the rest of the UK.....As we say in Scotland...Squeeky Bum time.

As for Blair being Scottish, he left Scotland at the age of three and was educated privately in England all his life. You talk as if he was born and bred in Bargeddie..
These private oxford/Cambridge/Eton educated career politicians need to be of this Earth before they can claim nationality.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: uncommitted
Are you saying what's in the blog is not fact.?

I'm saying that it is politically motivated spin. It matters little if the facts are correct, more down to how they are represented. If you are going to tell me that is a balanced representation then that says more about you.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: uncommitted
Welfare and taxation are both reserved for Westminster so yes there are food banks in Scotland at the moment and where the blame lies is pretty clear.

Well, yeah, Gordon Brown probably for starting a ball rolling that almost bankrupted the UK with his economic policies as chancellor and then Prime Minister that then needed severe work to try and reverse..... oh, I assume that's who you mean?