The Myth of Eternal Damnation

originally posted by: Kandinsky

Looked at a female ankle?

Nice examples

I have spied a female ankle before. I am guilty of this grave sin.

Sometimes I think that rules like these were made at a time when humans were so feeble that just seeing an ankle would send them on a rape pillage. But those times are long gone. Even as teenagers we have enough self-control to be able to look at a bikini-ad and stay calm.

a reply to: Skyfloating

They say a bad workman blames his tools and it works both ways with Old Testament God and His creations.

Whenever someone finds a shapely ankle arousing, they should blame the workman that fitted all the piping and wiring.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701


God is not a sadist. eternal torment would be as unappealing to him as it is to any sane individual. and Christians who gloat over the idea of their enemies and sinners being tormented forever should enter into a little self reflection or seek therapy.

Thanks for posting. I was interested in hearing from people who think the idea of eternal torment is non-biblical.

a reply to: Skyfloating

the people that preach hell and damnation are so wound up in their religion and what they've been taught about it that they have a serious need to be correct... they're so utterly terrified and convinced of this "hell" that they feel the need to warn everyone that its real... and theres people there right now suffering...

Completely ridiculous of course... Hell is nothing more then a fear tactic used as a means of conversion...

No merciful God would condemn people to eternal torture

God is a person.

in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

God walked in the garden. God showed the back of his head to Moses.

Christ was Emmanuel. God with us.

He said let us make man in our image. one member of mankind looked like God. (Christ, of course) Christ said if have seen me you have seen the Father.

God loves us like children. God loves for us to talk to him telling one to remind him from time to time of his promises to us. Not that he needs to be reminded or he would forget. he just wants conversation with us. he even haggled with Lot; God knew the outcome of Lot's desparate search for good men in Sodom and gamorah. there was no point in the experiment.

God said this is my son in whom i am well pleased.

how you can get that God is not a person from all of the details that can be gleaned from the bible is beyond me. other than disregarding the bible and substituting your own ideas.

God even chose the same symbols for himself that he used for other persons. he said i am like a great fir tree. while The Israelites were likened to an olive tree at times or a fig tree in others. and Christ was symbolized as the tree of life and Satan as the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
I still don't agree with giving him all the power.

No one gives Him anything. It's just the way it is. He created everything. It's His.

If I don't like God, does that automatically make me a monster?

Nope. Of course not.
In fact, if you are a monster you are kinda like Sully .. big and cuddly.

Kinda like saying that Guantanamo Bay is just a nice home for people who don't like TPTB.

People in GITMO would rather be in GITMO then living in the White House serving Obama for eternity ... right? In GITMO they still have their meals and their prayers and their thoughts and others who think like them, and they don't have to see or serve Obama in his home.

Given a choice between GITMO or serving in the White House .. they'd pick GITMO.
And they wouldn't get any other choice because Obama has all the power and
those would be their only two choices he'd give them.

** Obama = God; White House = Heaven; GITMO = Hell.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

originally posted by: stormbringer1701


God is not a sadist. eternal torment would be as unappealing to him as it is to any sane individual. and Christians who gloat over the idea of their enemies and sinners being tormented forever should enter into a little self reflection or seek therapy.

Thanks for posting. I was interested in hearing from people who think the idea of eternal torment is non-biblical.

it is non biblical but it sure is easy to make that mistake. i think you can thank a little politicking going on with the editors of the KJV plus some genuine mistakes and gaps in thier translation abilities and knowledge. hell as eternal torment sure is convenient to keep the flock in line for the organized church. but God as a good guy makes no sense with eternal torment.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

God is not a person... God is a spirit...

Try Reading your own book... geez

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: FlyersFan

Can you answer why the decisions made during a very brief ~75 years is supposed to effect where you end up FOREVER after those years are up? This is why I think that reincarnation is more plausible. I can't see it making sense that you get one chance to get things right then you have to live (no pun intended) with your decisions for all of eternity.

Still waiting for a response on this.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Still waiting for a response on this.

Was that directed at me? I musta' missed it. Actually, I believe reincarnation exists. I have past life memories from the life before this one. I died as a child in the Blitz in London during a Nazi air raid.

I don't know how many times we get recycled, but I know that at least some of us do. I think eventually we end up going to Heaven or Hell ... by our own choice. But reincarnation ??? Sure. I think God can do whatever he wants to.

*** I'm not sure if your question was directed at me and if I missed something.
If you weren't talking to me .. then please excuse the post.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

God is not a person... God is a spirit...

Try Reading your own book... geez

we are all spirits as well. we existed before we were encased in this mortal flesh. and we will be spirits and persons after judgement day by the grace of God) God actually is rather like a good military officer or NCO. he did not order us to follow any rule or command he himself would not do. As Jesus he perfectly lived by the law of the old covenant. as Jesus he even died for our sin on the cross. he commanded that we all pass into the flesh and die once. He himself did so.

well we get forgiven so its all cool right?

a reply to: FlyersFan

No that was to you, I understand how it could have been missed. It was the last post on page 1. Unfortunately the last posts on a page tend to get missed easily when a flood of new posts hit all at once. But I was interested in your thoughts on the subject so I brought it up again.

To me, reincarnation seems the most likely answer to what happens to us (if anything) after we die. If there is a greater purpose to the universe, there is no way anyone would ever be able to discover or experience it in one lifetime. We just don't live long enough. I just don't see how someone could still go to one of two places after a series of reincarnations like you said. Are you suggesting that we have a set number of times before we are done reincarnating then we get sent to heaven or hell? Wouldn't it make more sense that you keep reincarnating until you accept spiritually that you want to be with the divine (god)? In that sense, hell would be here on earth. Every time we reincarnate, we are being sent to hell, to try again so to speak.

OK - I'll try to make this as short as I can for anyone who gives a rip about my opinion.

First and foremost - The Bible is really little more than a history book of sorts about the trials and tribulations of the ancient Hebrews. A book that was written after thousands of years of telling historical stories around the campfire and in the tents and so forth. These books were written by human beings who believed that everything was God's doing. If the Hebrews lost a battle - it was because God was angry. If they won the battle or had abundant crops or whatever - God was happy.

Second - there is not one single word in the Old Testament or in the New Testament that can accurately be translated into the eternal burning punishment we currently call hell!

*The word "hell" appears in the Old Testament 31 times and in EVERY instance, the original word is the Hebrew word "sheol". "Sheol" never ever meant blazing fire and brimstone where the screams of the punished are heard eternally - quite the opposite actually. In Job 10:21, sheol is described as a place of "darkness" and in Psalms 115:17 sheol is described as a place of "silence" and again in Psalms 88:11 it is translated to "grave" where there is darkness and forgetfulness... etc. So the Hebrew word "sheol" is more accurately translated to the English word "grave" - and as a matter of fact it is also translated to "grave" 31 times in the OT and "pit" 3 times in the OT. Why is one single word that is used 65 times translated into 3 different meanings?

**In the New Testament, sheol and the Greek word "hades" are used interchangeably with the same meaning...certainly not referring to a fiery place of eternal torment, but perhaps where we get this fiery vision is from the use of the word "Gehenna" - which is used 12 times in the NT. This word is merely the Grecian way of spelling the Hebrew words which translate to "Valley of Hinnom". This was a valley (which is still there) outside the city of Jerusalem where the garbage, sewage, etc. was emptied and fires were kept continually burning to literally consume everything put into it, with "brimstone" being added to keep the fires going. Now, without going way off topic and explaining the old Jewish laws, punishments, etc., there were certain very bad criminals who were deemed too unworthy of a proper burial and - after their execution, their body was tossed into "Gehenna" along with the garbage, dog carcasses, sewage, etc. as an additional indignity to the criminal. Since at the time they believed that the physical body was resurrected from the tomb, this would ensure that the very bad criminals weren't given a chance at resurrection. They actually had no extreme belief regarding "eternal torment".
The only other word translated into "hell" is Tartaroo and is found once in 2 Peter 2:4 - "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [tartaroo], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement." The words here "cast down to hell" are translated from the one Greek word "tartaroo". This word resembles "tartarus" from Greek mythology, the name of a dark abyss or prison, and is only used in this one passage.

So I believe that when power hungry men "translated" the Old and New Testaments - there was a deliberate change of meaning so as to scare people into the church where they could be fleeced of their money and controlled, i.e. follow the church and it's rules or else you will burn in hell for eternity.

I want to add that I am a Christian (although the religious would debate that) and I believe that everyone goes to "heaven" or whatever is next. We are all spiritual beings that manifest ourselves into a brief mortal life (or several lives?) perhaps for the experience or...? I admit openly that I don't know what comes next - but I do believe we continue on after death and there is no way in hell (see what I did there) that an all loving Father-God would punish anyone with an eternity of suffering. Not even Hitler himself. Even if you are an atheist - you will go to the same place we all do!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I just don't see how someone could still go to one of two places after a series of reincarnations like you said. Are you suggesting that we have a set number of times before we are done reincarnating then we get sent to heaven or hell?

I'm saying it's up to God. I have no idea. All I know is that at least some of us reincarnate. And I know that some of us end up in heaven. And I know that some of us end up in hell and there are demons. I'm just basing all this on experience. Not faith. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers.

I've experienced a saint from heaven.
I've experienced ghosts walking the earth
I've experienced damned souls.
I've experienced demons.
I've had recurring dreams of my last life ... the death in my last life.
I've had some prayers instantly granted .... and others totally ignored.
Put them together and this is what I've got. That's all I know.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

God is not a person... God is a spirit...

Try Reading your own book... geez

we are all spirits as well. we existed before we were encased in this mortal flesh. and we will be spirits and persons after judgement day by the grace of God) God actually is rather like a good military officer or NCO. he did not order us to follow any rule or command he himself would not do. As Jesus he perfectly lived by the law of the old covenant. as Jesus he even died for our sin on the cross. he commanded that we all pass into the flesh and die once. He himself did so.

I always wonder if Christians ever get tired of regurgitating the same old tripe they've been taught...

Jesus drank... mingled with sinners and the "scum" of the earth... he worked on the Sabbath... Called himself the son of God which is blasphemy in Judaism...

Wake up my friend...

I find it fascinating that so many people who believe in a God, heaven and the "good side" of conventional religion have discounted Satan, hell and the "bad side" of conventional religion as a myth. I mean, in the duality of good and evil, there's a figurehead for good and a figurehead for evil. There's the promise of a wonderful afterlife for those who follow the rules and a threat of a miserable afterlife for those who don't.

I'm really curious how one can just chop it in half and say that the "evil" side is a myth, but still believe wholeheartedly in the "good" part.

originally posted by: Jennyfrenzy
a reply to: Skyfloating

That's what turns me off from organized religions. Spirituality should be uplifting and while there are consequences to our actions I have a hard time believing someone will burn in hell for making a bad choice. For instance, stealing is a considered a sin but what if someone stole food because they're starving. Will they burn in eternal damnation because no matter what it's a sin? Scare tactics such as this honestly disgust me, but some people will believe anything they're told.

Spirituality is uplifting and our "consequences" while we are in this mortal flesh are just karma. You receive what you give I believe!

Religion on the other hand is an invention to gain power and control the sheep. Religion is a business, spirituality is a belief. Religion condemns, spirituality uplifts.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Are you sure that those experiences are what you thought they were and you weren't being fooled by a being more powerful than you? Why do we always assume that extra-dimensional entities are either benevolent or pure evil? I don't see that duality in the rest of the universe, I fail to see how it would therefore exist in higher dimensions. I could totally see some asshole spirit trolling humans just for the fun of it. I can also see a spirit feigning benevolence to gain trust only to use it for their own ends. A spirit could appear altruistic, but the altruism is really a front to accomplish their own ends.

All the rhetoric about god is that he loves you unconditionally. Therefore it reasons that he will do whatever he can to make sure that we all are reunited with him in the end. No exceptions. We are told that he is all forgiving as well. The very nature of unconditional love and all forgiving means there CAN'T be a point where god gives up on you and sends you to hell. No matter what evils you performed, all forgiving means that he will forgive you for it. By damning people to a place called hell, he is putting conditions on his love. There are things that a human can do that DON'T get god's forgiveness.

Logically, I just fail to see that reincarnation and two places you can go in the afterlife could coexist (well I guess technically it would be three: reincarnate, heaven, or hell). The whole idea of reincarnation is that you are being given another chance. But if we assume that there is x number of times you can reincarnate before god just gives up and sends you to hell, again we are putting conditions on his love and forgiveness. What happened to gods infinite patience? We are very primitive in thought. God would understand this and understand that even the people that reject him would eventually come around to him given enough time and reincarnations. By this token, even Hitler could be redeemed. THAT is how I interpret the scriptures of my old religion.

originally posted by: tallcool1
OK - I'll try to make this as short as I can for anyone who gives a rip about my opinion.

First and foremost - The Bible is really little more than a history book of sorts about the trials and tribulations of the ancient Hebrews. A book that was written after thousands of years of telling historical stories around the campfire and in the tents and so forth. These books were written by human beings who believed that everything was God's doing. If the Hebrews lost a battle - it was because God was angry. If they won the battle or had abundant crops or whatever - God was happy.


I want to add that I am a Christian (although the religious would debate that) and I believe that everyone goes to "heaven" or whatever is next. We are all spiritual beings that manifest ourselves into a brief mortal life (or several lives?) perhaps for the experience or...? I admit openly that I don't know what comes next - but I do believe we continue on after death and there is no way in hell (see what I did there) that an all loving Father-God would punish anyone with an eternity of suffering. Not even Hitler himself. Even if you are an atheist - you will go to the same place we all do!

your first paragraph is wrong. your last is mostly correct minus the reincarnation bit which is not biblically supported.
The bible says it is appointed to man to be born of woman and die in the flesh but once. The bible say that to be absent the flesh is to be in the presence of God in heaven. it say the dead are with God.


the rest of it as far as it pertains to the words translated as hell are spot on. though i would quibble that the grave isn't exactly as pictured. two reasons. Christs descent into the grave wherein he preached to the imates and many accepted him, and his description of the afterlife with lazarus and the rich man. sheol is like a place of waiting. you might think of it as a lobby or something like that. Lazarus, the rich man, and abraham were there. they were not asleep in the grave.