The Myth of Eternal Damnation

a reply to: FlyersFan

So you'd chose Hell in the afterlife and you'd be fine with it because the alternative would be to live in Heaven with God and Him ruling ...

Yeah, but see, I don't really know what it would be like there, hypothetically speaking. I know propaganda, I know psychology, I know what we're supposed to think. But I don't actually know what's there. What if God turns out to be some pretentious prick I have no desire to associate with? Does that automatically make me a bad person? Maybe he's a narcissist and no one likes him, and the only reason anyone is in his kingdom is because they know that if you're not in heaven, you're somewhere worse. Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way and I decide he's not my kind of king. Does that mean I've instantly earned an eternity in his personal barbecue pit?

a reply to: Skyfloating

That's what turns me off from organized religions. Spirituality should be uplifting and while there are consequences to our actions I have a hard time believing someone will burn in hell for making a bad choice. For instance, stealing is a considered a sin but what if someone stole food because they're starving. Will they burn in eternal damnation because no matter what it's a sin? Scare tactics such as this honestly disgust me, but some people will believe anything they're told.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
BThe people in Hell put themselves there and want to stay there because it's as far away from God as they can get .... They want no part of Heaven.

I have met people in this life who prefer lifelong suffering and complaining to forgiveness (and thereby relief from suffering), so this idea of personal choice certainly makes more sense to me.

I take it that after a Million years or so, they might start getting bored and try to ascend. ;-)

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
You mean a dictatorship.

If God made everything .. and He's all powerful .. then yes, a dictatorship. Why? Did you think that, as a created organic being, that you'd have more say over what eternity is then the One Who created it and Who runs it?

Think about it ... if you don't like God then why would you want to spend eternity in His Home with Him running things? You wouldn't, right? Therefore, you'd want to be as far away from Him as possible. That's Hell. And you'd be happier there then in Heaven because you wouldn't be in Gods home with God in charge of it.

It works ...

originally posted by: SirKonstantin

I am glad you were able to expression this carefully.

I have to tread carefully...otherwise they`ll call me a heretc or...god forbid...a liberal for believing that 1000 years of punishment for Hitler is enough.

originally posted by: SirKonstantin

Jesus wan't a Christian
Buddha wan't Buddhist
Muhammad wan't a Muslim (?)

The teachers are usually really interesting people...the followers often less so.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you'd chose Hell in the afterlife and you'd be fine with it because the alternative would be to live in Heaven with God and Him ruling ...

Yeah, but see, I don't really know what it would be like there, hypothetically speaking. I know propaganda, I know psychology, I know what we're supposed to think. But I don't actually know what's there. What if God turns out to be some pretentious prick I have no desire to associate with? Does that automatically make me a bad person? Maybe he's a narcissist and no one likes him, and the only reason anyone is in his kingdom is because they know that if you're not in heaven, you're somewhere worse. Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way and I decide he's not my kind of king. Does that mean I've instantly earned an eternity in his personal barbecue pit?

Thats the point, God most likely would be a prick. Because he would know everything about you, and everything you could possibly do and want to do and why. Probably not the life of the party. How would God have to be for him to be 'the creator of the universe' you would like to associate with?

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
You mean a dictatorship.

If God made everything .. and He's all powerful .. then yes, a dictatorship. Why? Did you think that, as a created organic being, that you'd have more say over what eternity is then the One Who created it and Who runs it?

Think about it ... if you don't like God then why would you want to spend eternity in His Home with Him running things? You wouldn't, right? Therefore, you'd want to be as far away from Him as possible. That's Hell. And you'd be happier there then in Heaven because you wouldn't be in Gods home with God in charge of it.

It works ...

Remember the American Revolution? That was a war fought to establish an independent nation, free of the English monarchy. How about the war in Afghanistan? That was a war against dictatorship. So lemme ask you, if we're busy fighting all these wars against monarchs and dictators, communists and Nazis, why the hell should we accept them in the afterlife? Does dying suddenly make dictatorships less oppressive, or Nazis less cruel?

Also, I edited my other post. Have a look.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

originally posted by: SirKonstantin

I am glad you were able to expression this carefully.

I have to tread carefully...otherwise they`ll call me a heretc or...god forbid...a liberal for believing that 1000 years of punishment for Hitler is enough.

Well I did think in your OP you first said 100 years or 1000 years for hitler, and did think the 100 was quite liberal, considering there are people in American prison systems serving double life sentences.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
if we're busy fighting all these wars against monarchs and dictators, communists and Nazis, why the hell should we accept them in the afterlife?

You have no choice. It's like you are an ant and God is the universe. This is HIS game. We are just the pieces. It is impossible to overthrow God. He created it all. He runs it. He is bigger than all of us put together.

For you to have a tantrum and try to revolt against God in the afterlife would be funny. Picture it ... little you against God who made the entire universe and holds it together (and holds you together) simply with His thoughts. Comeon .. who will win that one??

The question remains .. why would you want to go to heaven anyways? If you don't like God; if you want to throw Him out; if you don't want to be around Him ... then why would you want to be in His home??

Hell is made for folks like you. That's not an insult so don't take it that way. Hell is for people who want to be as far away from God as possible. It's for those who don't like Him and don't want to live in His home with Him for eternity. So given the choice .. Heaven or Hell .. you'll be happier with Hell. UNLESS at some point you decide you don't hate God and wouldn't mind living with Him in His home for eternity .. then you'll chose Heaven.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

Well I did think in your OP you first said 100 years or 1000 years for hitler, and did think the 100 was quite liberal, considering there are people in American prison systems serving double life sentences.

Alright...let's say 1 year for every human killed. That would make at least 6 Million years for Hitler (or 4 Million according to Holocaust-Revisionists).

But - call me a deluded liberal - anything above a 100 Trillion years is a little too harsh imo.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you'd chose Hell in the afterlife and you'd be fine with it because the alternative would be to live in Heaven with God and Him ruling ...

Yeah, but see, I don't really know what it would be like there, hypothetically speaking. I know propaganda, I know psychology, I know what we're supposed to think. But I don't actually know what's there. What if God turns out to be some pretentious prick I have no desire to associate with? Does that automatically make me a bad person? Maybe he's a narcissist and no one likes him, and the only reason anyone is in his kingdom is because they know that if you're not in heaven, you're somewhere worse. Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way and I decide he's not my kind of king. Does that mean I've instantly earned an eternity in his personal barbecue pit?

Thats the point, God most likely would be a prick. Because he would know everything about you, and everything you could possibly do and want to do and why. Probably not the life of the party. How would God have to be for him to be 'the creator of the universe' you would like to associate with?

Depending on what god we're talking about specifically, I have seen a consistent pattern in more recent mythologies where "God" gives us two choices: love him, or be destroyed. I see this as betraying an insecure mentality, the certainty that if allowed, we will abandon this figure in an instant.

originally posted by: Danny85


Let's take Hitler as someone above mentioned, If I were God, Hitlers punishment would be a couple of things - Firstly he would experience every death that he personally ordered, he would then have to witness each death for each of these people and do so on until every single human life that he removed from the earth he had personally viewed and experienced.

Brilliant punishment. How disgusting of a show would that be?

According to what they say about Karma, that's precisely what would happen.

a reply to: FlyersFan

You have no choice. It's like you are an ant and God is the universe. This is HIS game. We are just the pieces. It is impossible to overthrow God. He created it all. He runs it. He is bigger than all of us put together.

I don't believe in allowing any one person to have all the power. Ever. That is a stupid mistake to make, and more often than not, you wind up paying for it.

The question remains .. why would you want to go to heaven anyways? If you don't like God; if you want to throw Him out; if you don't want to be around Him ... then why would you want to be in His home??

You may as well ask me why I shouldn't go to hell if I don't like God. What do you think? Am I worthy of eternal damnation for my taste in company?

Hell is made for folks like you. That's not an insult so don't take it that way. Hell is for people who want to be as far away from God as possible. It's for those who don't like Him and don't want to live in His home with Him for eternity. So given the choice .. Heaven or Hell .. you'll be happier with Hell. UNLESS at some point you decide you don't hate God and wouldn't mind living with Him in His home for eternity .. then you'll chose Heaven.

Black and white, as usual. Ugh, this gets boring so fast. And thanks for telling me I belong in hell. Maybe I'll get a quick tour before I have to decide.

a reply to: Skyfloating

Hiya Sky.

It's one of the most psychologically damaging memes lies to have ever been conceptualised and injected into the consciousness of humanity...imo lol. Thousands of years old and still influencing the thoughts and deeds of millions.

Given the T&Cs of accessing heaven or any other revered paradise, a lot of folk are gonna be really pissed to find themselves being molested and tortured for the rest of time...and how pointless?! Looked at a female ankle? Never baptised? Fancied your friend's spouse? Shown anger at the jackass you work with? Scoffed that extra slice of chilli pizza? All of these are free tickets to damnation.

Normal folk can't get past Monday morning without being damned for eternity and we've more chance of winning the lottery than avoiding the pits.

Even the worst psychos and criminals stop torturing eventually.

And yet, here we are in 2014 and over a billion people subscribe to the belief in a Supreme Being that would engineer eternal torture. They even say thanks every day.

If damnation and heaven are genuine destinations, I'd be as angry in one of them as the other.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
I don't believe in allowing any one person to have all the power.

God isn't a person ... God is the Creator. He DOES have all the power. This is His game. We are His creation. You can not believe in all power being in one place all you like. But that doesnt' change the fact that all the power in the universe DOES belong with God. He's it. Our power? It doesn't even blink on a radar screen.

What do you think? Am I worthy of eternal damnation for my taste in company?

I don't know what that means. Sorry, I can't follow.

Black and white, as usual. Ugh, this gets boring so fast.

I told you not to take it personally. It's not damnation. It's a choice. (at least according to the nun). And it makes sense. Again ... Heaven is for those who love God and want to be in His Home for all eternity. Why would you want to be there if you don't like God and don't want to live under His rule? You wouldn't, right? So you would chose Hell ... which you would see as a much better place than Heaven because God wouldn't be there.

You'd like Hell better. Again .. that's not a slam. Think about it. You'll see.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

I mean lets take Hitler for example. I can see how punishing him for a hundred years might seem reasonable and an opportunity to "learn the lesson" or as a deterrent. Even a thousand years might be conceivable. But after a trillion years of being punished and tortured, what is the point? And after 10 Trillion years its not enough already?

In christianity, Hitler could go to heaven if he confessed jesus died for his sins, even the sin of killing 60 million Jews. Or, hitler would experience hell eternally...i.e. in a state where time cant be percieved...

Ezekeil 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

hell itself is not eternal torment. hell is place of execution. the bible says fear not those that can kill the body but him that can destroy the soul. many of Satans' titles; such as son of perdition, appolyon, etc. means to die. perdition's root means "to perish." John 3:16 say that God desires that no one perish, and admonished israel in the OT to do what is right so that they can live. the description in Daniel concerning the king of Tyre widely recognized as being a biblical type for Satan says he will burn to ashed from within his midst (belly/torso) and the people will tread on his ashes when he is thrown in the lake of fire. Christ's description of the environs where Lazarus and the rich man are does not contain any literal lake of fire. Christ calls hell Gehenom. Gehenom was a landfill outside Jerusalem at the time where the fires burned night and day but it is gone now.

the new testament calls hell the second death which is the death of the soul.

the effects of hell are eternal. but Hell is not. that is a misconception that has appallingly been embraced by most churches. can you imagine a heaven where your loved ones or even strangers writhe in torment out on the front porch? what kind of psychopath could enjoy being in such a place?

The parts of the bible that appear to support eternal torment are in some cases hebraisms and in some cases maybe even a little faulty editing. a hebraism is a figure of speech. there are plenty of them in the bible. at the time smoke was thought to go up forever and ever as it rises above a fire. so the saying meant that something was sealed, done, final and irreversible.

ironically the unsaved atheist (along with all other unsaved people) is going exactly where he thinks he is; that is into nothingness.

the obliteration in hell is so complete that even people who knew them will not remember them or anything about them. they will be blotted out of the book of life which means there will be no trace even outside of memory. if there was a book with them in it it's erased. a statue of them? gone. they carved initials in a table somewhere? gone.

God is not a sadist. eternal torment would be as unappealing to him as it is to any sane individual. and Christians who gloat over the idea of their enemies and sinners being tormented forever should enter into a little self reflection or seek therapy.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Or, hitler would experience hell eternally...i.e. in a state where time cant be percieved...

I`ve thought about this before. That perhaps "eternal" actually refers to a timeless dimension and not literally "eternal" as in a long, long time. Metaphysically speaking, its something to consider.

a reply to: FlyersFan

God isn't a person ... God is the Creator. He DOES have all the power. This is His game. We are His creation. You can not believe in all power being in one place all you like. But that doesnt' change the fact that all the power in the universe DOES belong with God. He's it. Our power? It doesn't even blink on a radar screen.

You speak of him as though he were a person. And I still don't agree with giving him all the power. The logical choice would be to choose three worth successors to share the throne amongst themselves, and fade back into the world you so lovingly created.

I don't know what that means. Sorry, I can't follow.

If I don't like God, does that automatically make me a monster?

I told you not to take it personally. It's not damnation. It's a choice. (at least according to the nun). And it makes sense. Again ... Heaven is for those who love God and want to be in His Home for all eternity. Why would you want to be there if you don't like God and don't want to live under His rule? You wouldn't, right? So you would chose Hell ... which you would see as a much better place than Heaven because God wouldn't be there.

Kinda like saying that Guantanamo Bay is just a nice home for people who don't like TPTB.