Former Abortion Clinic Owner: We Pushed Sex Ed on Kids to Create a Market for Abortion

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
Isnt it funny that all of these things posted cite hardcore christians as the voice of reason in it?

Y'all gotta realize...nobody gives 2 craps about your religion but you.

NO. ONE.

Do you have anything to say that isn't attacking a group, and is actually relevant to the issue? If you didn't care, you wouldn't be here posting, either.

So, pointing out that it is always one specific religious group that attacks abortion is now attacking that group? It must be tough being the martyr all of the time.

See, though, you miss my point. That couldnt care less about your religion. What I DO care about is when people use their religion as an excuse to takevaway others rights.

Your post clearly implies that Christians aren't able to be reasonable on an issue. Don't pretend it doesn't. That is why it got any stars at all, because others that can't respect Christians like that sort of dig. You didn't offer anything actually relevant; you addressed the group you assume is posting in agreement with me, instead. That isn't valid debate.

If you were paying any attention, you'd see that I didn't mention any religious aspects of the issue in this thread. Nope, you were too busy posting an insult to Christians to take the time to actually READ the thread. Typical.

For those that want to know how this was planned?

It was a lecture from a doctor back in 1969 This doctor was ahead of Family Planning.

When you read the 3 pages think back to what it was like back in 1969..... This is very important......

There were no home computers, no cell phone, and I think all they had was packman in restaurants??? Not for home type games yet. I think this was b/4 Atrie even. So for those reading after 1969 the predictions this doctor gave would have been quite shocking for this time period. As your reading these 3 pages see how many of his predictions have come true.

Oh and by the way he died soon after this lecture! Coincidence?

Google New Order of the Barbarians

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
Isnt it funny that all of these things posted cite hardcore christians as the voice of reason in it?

Y'all gotta realize...nobody gives 2 craps about your religion but you.

NO. ONE.

Do you have anything to say that isn't attacking a group, and is actually relevant to the issue? If you didn't care, you wouldn't be here posting, either.

So, pointing out that it is always one specific religious group that attacks abortion is now attacking that group? It must be tough being the martyr all of the time.

See, though, you miss my point. That couldnt care less about your religion. What I DO care about is when people use their religion as an excuse to takevaway others rights.

Your post clearly implies that Christians aren't able to be reasonable on an issue. Don't pretend it doesn't. That is why it got any stars at all, because others that can't respect Christians like that sort of dig. You didn't offer anything actually relevant; you addressed the group you assume is posting in agreement with me, instead. That isn't valid debate.

If you were paying any attention, you'd see that I didn't mention any religious aspects of the issue in this thread. Nope, you were too busy posting an insult to Christians to take the time to actually READ the thread. Typical.

Sorry, but I've never heard so much drivel in all my life...in the UK, we have a free, at point of use, National Health service and abortion is a service they provide, so no one is making any money from it, and the reason young girls are offered the specific contraception you are talking about in your OP, is because it is one of the safer ones in terms of possible blood clots, thrombosis etc. Girls are made aware that they should take the pill correctly, and that they should also use condoms to protect against STI's as well as providing back up contraception. In no way is this service designed to make them have sex or encourage them to get pregnant so that they can have an abortion...that's ridiculous on so many levels and I cannot believe it is any different in the US, because lets face it, no one is forcing them to have an abortion, so it would be a risky strategy if all the girls who were "tricked into pregnancy by the nefarious method of giving them sex education and contraception" backfired and they all decided to have their babies..that's going to be a huge drain on the welfare system!

Also I quoted this particular post to have my say in this ludicrous discussion, as you claim that the poster you were replying to was so wrong that they didn't get any stars at all...wrong, I can see 3 stars for that specific post...that is all...

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given.

So it's a given that there are more abortions now because of their legality (even thought this is not backed up by current statistics)? But it is not a given that illegal abortions are likely to be less safe than legal ones? You sure do pick your givens.

originally posted by: JuniorDisco

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given.

So it's a given that there are more abortions now because of their legality (even thought this is not backed up by current statistics)? But it is not a given that illegal abortions are likely to be less safe than legal ones? You sure do pick your givens.

The OP has still not addressed the issue of illegal abortions.

originally posted by: destination now
Sorry, but I've never heard so much drivel in all my life...in the UK, we have a free, at point of use, National Health service and abortion is a service they provide, so no one is making any money from it, ...

Many clinics here do make money. Even those receiving tax dollars, such as Planned Parenthood, make money. None of them do it at no profit.

originally posted by: destination now
and the reason young girls are offered the specific contraception you are talking about in your OP, is because it is one of the safer ones in terms of possible blood clots, thrombosis etc. Girls are made aware that they should take the pill correctly, and that they should also use condoms to protect against STI's as well as providing back up contraception.

The fact is that such methods are also known to fail. Teenage girls don't think about all that, and thus do frequently end up pregnant as a result. When someone in the business for years states that was deliberate, sensible people listen.

originally posted by: destination now
Also I quoted this particular post to have my say in this ludicrous discussion, as you claim that the poster you were replying to was so wrong that they didn't get any stars at all...wrong, I can see 3 stars for that specific post...that is all...

That isn't even what I stated. I stated that the reason the person DID get stars was because the comment was negative against a group they didn't like. Pay attention next time.

originally posted by: JuniorDisco

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given.

So it's a given that there are more abortions now because of their legality (even thought this is not backed up by current statistics)? But it is not a given that illegal abortions are likely to be less safe than legal ones? You sure do pick your givens.

When legal abortions aren't safe, the argument that making them legal is about safety is moot. They clearly are NOT safe in many cases.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

That sounds like anti abortion propaganda to me, I wonder how much he is been paid to say that, you don't have to push sex ed on children to encourage sex, that is a lie.

Sex is part of human nature and preservation of species in the animal kingdom and any other kingdom in earth, children are very aware of their sexual organs at a very young age and experience sexual gratification also, even if they do not know what they are doing, it just feels right for them.

Also children upon maturity will experience with sex as a natural thing.

Christianity and social standards are the ones that seems to push sex as unnatural and dirty, because is against religious views and to stop sexual abuse as that has become a trend in modern days to encourage none Christian countries from the practicing of marrying young girls.

I do find very disgusting that now they are after sex ed in order to keep pushing agendas as the reason of promiscuity and abortion as a side effect.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: JuniorDisco

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given.

So it's a given that there are more abortions now because of their legality (even thought this is not backed up by current statistics)? But it is not a given that illegal abortions are likely to be less safe than legal ones? You sure do pick your givens.

When legal abortions aren't safe, the argument that making them legal is about safety is moot. They clearly are NOT safe in many cases.

But if you make abortion illegal then your own comments mean that underground abortions will be inherently unsafe!

There is no way that any comparison can ever be made between figures

for abortion pre and after legality. They are by their very

nature of illegality a dark secret


My own views are that there is actually little difference in the figures

because there was less available contraception back in the time when

abortion was illegal. No brainer - less contraception = more pregnancy.



BUT legal or illegal Never doubt the desperation of a

woman with an unwanted pregnancy

SHE WILL BE PREPARED TO RISK HER LIFE .....

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given. The fact that a woman or teenage girl knows she can go out and get an abortion if she ends up pregnant means a lot take fewer precautions. That's why many end up having multiple abortions. I know someone who did. She had three, and she knew how to use birth control, as well. She also talks bout how terrible that was for her, and the lasting effects it's had on her life. Smart, professional lady, and she did it because it was convenient. Because she could. She said that herself. Without that "safety net", she would have been less likely to have sex outside of marriage. Her statements on that issue are very moving. That's someone I know personally, too, not something I read online.

The point is that legal abortion, on demand, for any reason, is simply wrong. That is what we have now. Pregnant? Career problems from that? Go abort the baby. Pregnant? Won't fit into your dress for that special event? Go abort the baby. People DO that. You can read those and other statements from women stating they had an abortion, with anything at all being a "valid" reason for the abortion. Not some real (rare) health risk. Not a case of rape. Simple convenience for the woman. Plus, they aren't safe now. Did you ever read about Gosnell? There are tons of clniics with little to no oversight, and really bad conditions.

So what? That is these womens' right. If it is legal I don't really care what the reason for it is, it's not mine nor your business so what does it matter? That decision is between the woman, (hopefully) the man who got her pregnant, and god (if he exists). Your opinion on the matter isn't necessary. The fact is that it is legal so these women have every right to do it for whatever reason they want. Can the reasons be shallow? Yes. Certainly, people are generally pretty shallow, but again that isn't my place to judge them or cast shame on them for it. Let their guilt eat them.

I read your op about a few clinics with poor oversight from an ex-worker there who, after reading further sources about it, sounds like she is just blowing smoke because she is now a pro-lifer. I haven't read or seen ANY information from you say that this is a problem indicative of the whole industry. Though you keep insisting that it is. Sorry, but your logic flow doesn't match up.

My response was based on your statement. You listed things that make the world unsafe, when I stated that these clinics are not properly supervised, and are frequently unsanitary and unsafe. If you don't want me to address that, don't use that as an argument. Making something that is inherently unsafe legal isn't a valid solution, either.

I know what I said and I never said you couldn't address it. I said don't twist my words. I know that there are unsafe things out there. I also know that when something is illegal it becomes so much more unsafe. I'd rather have the procedure be as safe as possible (which means it is legal). Will there be bad apples? Yes, but we can take care of them on case by case basis's. None of what I just said here implies that I am ok with an abortion clinic using unsafe procedures to perform abortions. So stop saying that I am suggesting it.

So, should theft be legal because people will do it anyway? How about child abuse? Murder? Oh, wait, it is in this case. Safe theft, then, with laws against defending your home, so the poor burglars can go about their business as safely as possible. Nope, not a valid argument on your part.

Well I don't consider abortion to be murder, so there is that. Your examples all fall under crimes that contain victims. I view abortion as a victimless crime, so that is just a difference of opinion. All victimless crimes should be legal since people will do them anyways and they aren't hurting anyone.

Offer any fact that shows this woman isn't credible. Offer any fact that sows most abortion clinics are safe. You can't, because we aren't allowed to even see their stats. We aren't allowed to know how many patients have to be taken to a hospital because of an error. Groups that have tried to do this, and that found many such patients, have had regulations passed against them that make it more difficult all the time. The whole process is done in secrecy. Planned Parenthood has been exposed as willing to cover up for a pedophile that got a victim pregnant, making them criminal. Gosnell was exposed as a butcher, that got away with it for long years. Other clinics have been exposed for having bad sanitation, for allowing untrained workers to perform procedures, for not giving any pain medication, etc. Unsafe and illegal procedures have been proven; where is the proof of safe and legal procedures?

But you still have to prove that this problem is indicative of the entire industry. Again all you've shown is at the most that we have a bad apple or two in the bunch.

The woman in the article wasn't discussing one clinic, either. She ran several, and she was involved in the lobbying at a national level. One location? Nope, not accurate.

That STILL isn't all of them. Heck, it's not even all the clinics in Texas (her home state). And she lobbies AGAINST abortions not for them. I'd think her views are a little biased as far as identifying nationwide problems with abortion clinics. Sorry but you are really trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You are making an egregious leap in logic and trying to pin the testimony from ONE ex-abortion worker turned lifer into actions of the entire industry. Using your logic, we should disband the Catholic church because some priests are pedophiles in it.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: JuniorDisco

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Of course there are more now that it is legal. That's a given.

So it's a given that there are more abortions now because of their legality (even thought this is not backed up by current statistics)? But it is not a given that illegal abortions are likely to be less safe than legal ones? You sure do pick your givens.

When legal abortions aren't safe, the argument that making them legal is about safety is moot. They clearly are NOT safe in many cases.

That's ridiculous. And complete sophistry. Legal abortions are by any measure much safer, despite not being risk free, so the argument absolutely stands. You just want to exclude it.

The logical conclusion of your argument is to abolish all safety measures in anything, since sometimes they fail. Planes occasionally crash, so clearly air flight should be completely unregulated because planes would still crash. Their number being apparently immaterial.

I really fail to see the argument here. Figures suggest that abortions are at a comparable level to pre-legalisation and common sense would suggest that an illegal procedure is likely to be more dangerous than a legal one. So LadyGreenEyes seems to be agitating for a move that would not reduce abortion but kill and harm more women.

And to back up this extraordinary view we are offered anecdotal evidence from a person whose high fees are reliant on their propagation of the stories they are telling.

The source of this problem isn`t abortion, the source is the profit gained from abortions.

Why in the world could society be stupid enough to leave abortion to companies that profit from it? Oh yeah, because stupid people don`t want to pay abortion fees with their taxes .

I understand the values of ''pro-life''...
but being ''pro-logic'' I understand that you just can`t build a system where sick people are profiting because the system will make you sick to profit from you.

Stupid systems makes stupid people abuse from it.

Make healthcare 100% money loss and see prevention, intelligent designs and cures arise.

originally posted by: theMediator
The source of this problem isn`t abortion, the source is the profit gained from abortions.

Why in the world could society be stupid enough to leave abortion to companies that profit from it? Oh yeah, because stupid people don`t want to pay with their taxes abortion fees.

In understand the values of ''pro-life''...
but being ''pro-logic'' I understand that you just can`t build a system where sick people are profiting because the system will make you sick to profit from you.

Stupid systems makes stupid people abuse from it.

Make healthcare 100% money loss and see prevention, intelligent designs and cures arise.

These are good points, but keep in mind, when you place government in charge it may eliminate or minimize the problems you pointed out, but in their place it creates a whole new slew of problems. Look at the VA scandal for evidence of what I am speaking about. So no matter how you handle it, there will be problems. The best bet is to just try to do what you can, work out the kinks when they arise and don't overreact to every little thing like the OP is doing.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

She says that the programs aim to teach children that talking to their parents about sex is uncomfortable and then they offer to be the people the children turn to for support. She says that girls are then provided with low dose birth control, which is ineffective if not taken at the same time each and every day, which is close to impossible for any teenager. When the girls get pregnant, they then turn to abortion clinics, she says.

Sex education wasn't what was pushed, it was low dose birth control that was given to teenagers thinking they we`re protected.

Sex education isn't evil, sex isn't evil...
Deception, however, is.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
So no matter how you handle it, there will be problems.

Heh, well that's life!

I feel that, from top to bottom, medical fees, like education, energy, infrastructures should be 100% money lost has they should be viewed like investments towards a wealthier society.

Of course other problems would arise but I can see this world is plagued with ever-growing ideas of personal profit to the detriment of every living things on the face of the earth...I think this would be a good start to at least have some sort of stability.

a reply to: theMediator

The problem that arises in situations like that though is motivation. Without reward, how are we going to motivate people to take up these careers? Where is the motivation to develop new life saving techniques? Where is the motivation to develop new drugs? Unfortunately our world doesn't work on the altruistic system. It works on a rewards system. You do something, you expect adequate compensation for it. If we made the health care industry a 100% loss industry, we would in effect end up gutting the industry because no one would want to work in it anymore. Keep in mind, its not just doctors and nurses that work in this industry.

The only recourse is to make it government ran so that the workers in the industry still get compensation for their work. But like I pointed out, you run into corruption on wide scale like in the VA situation or you lose adequate high level care while providing easy low level care. Abortions are mostly voluntary procedures, and not to mention it doesn't exactly make you the most popular person in the world to take up that profession thanks to people like the OP. I can't see many quality doctors deciding to go into that field of medicine if the compensation is determined by the government. And again the R&D monster rears its head again. Who is going to pay to research to make these procedures safer? Pay to develop safer drugs for it? These are all costs that go into health care in general that the for-profit model can handle adequately, but the government model runs into a slew of problems with it.

agh. This forum was painful to read! If you want evidence, Im not going to look up the statistics, you can do it yourself, but I'm pretty sure that most of western Europe, which is much more sexually educated and liberated than the US, has lower abortion rates, as well as lower pregnancy and birth rates. Its not sex ed that is causing the problem....indeed, I think the larger contributor is from ludicrous "abstinence only" programs and lack of effective sex ed, which is being blocked by the Christian groups. Why in the US is it that we have such a backlash against science and reason? Truly, we are the most fundamentalist nation in the world (except, perhaps for Saudi Arabia), and yet we have the audacity to make fun of the muslims. Astounding.

It is really strange to me, how we have such a sexualized commercial society, and yet at the same time we are so sexually repressed that most people have too many sexual and relationship pathologies to shake a stick at, hence our massive rates of divorce, perversion, etc. Our sad pathos with our sexual identity is also reflected in our high rates of rape and molestation, which also surpass those of most western European nations. Perplexing for such a good, god fearing nation of forgiveness and non-judgment. Good thing we are pacifists as well, as otherwise the world would really be in tr.....oh....wait. Nvm.

a reply to: Krazysh0t Um...in Europe and Canada there are plenty doctors, janitors, nurses, etc that are working in the state run medical systems. And pharmaceutical research is still done in those nations as well. Just saying.