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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Krazysh0t Um...in Europe and Canada there are plenty doctors, janitors, nurses, etc that are working in the state run medical systems. And pharmaceutical research is still done in those nations as well. Just saying.
That may be waht you inferred, but thats not what I implied. I have met plenty of christians that dont think it is their place to force their beliefs on others.
Your post clearly implies that Christians aren't able to be reasonable on an issue. Don't pretend it doesn't.
And yet, here you are, trying to debate me. Interesting.
That is why it got any stars at all, because others that can't respect Christians like that sort of dig. You didn't offer anything actually relevant; you addressed the group you assume is posting in agreement with me, instead. That isn't valid debate.
You mean except the source posted, and the entire point of the thread?
If you were paying any attention, you'd see that I didn't mention any religious aspects of the issue in this thread. Nope, you were too busy posting an insult to Christians to take the time to actually READ the thread. Typical.
originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes
That sounds like anti abortion propaganda to me, I wonder how much he is been paid to say that, you don't have to push sex ed on children to encourage sex, that is a lie.
originally posted by: marg6043
Sex is part of human nature and preservation of species in the animal kingdom and any other kingdom in earth, children are very aware of their sexual organs at a very young age and experience sexual gratification also, even if they do not know what they are doing, it just feels right for them.
originally posted by: marg6043
Also children upon maturity will experience with sex as a natural thing.
originally posted by: marg6043
Christianity and social standards are the ones that seems to push sex as unnatural and dirty, because is against religious views and to stop sexual abuse as that has become a trend in modern days to encourage none Christian countries from the practicing of marrying young girls.
originally posted by: marg6043
I do find very disgusting that now they are after sex ed in order to keep pushing agendas as the reason of promiscuity and abortion as a side effect.
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
But if you make abortion illegal then your own comments mean that underground abortions will be inherently unsafe!
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
So what? That is these womens' right. If it is legal I don't really care what the reason for it is, it's not mine nor your business so what does it matter? That decision is between the woman, (hopefully) the man who got her pregnant, and god (if he exists). Your opinion on the matter isn't necessary. The fact is that it is legal so these women have every right to do it for whatever reason they want. Can the reasons be shallow? Yes. Certainly, people are generally pretty shallow, but again that isn't my place to judge them or cast shame on them for it. Let their guilt eat them.
originally posted by: marg6043
I read your op about a few clinics with poor oversight from an ex-worker there who, after reading further sources about it, sounds like she is just blowing smoke because she is now a pro-lifer. I haven't read or seen ANY information from you say that this is a problem indicative of the whole industry. Though you keep insisting that it is. Sorry, but your logic flow doesn't match up.
originally posted by: marg6043
Well I don't consider abortion to be murder, so there is that. Your examples all fall under crimes that contain victims. I view abortion as a victimless crime, so that is just a difference of opinion. All victimless crimes should be legal since people will do them anyways and they aren't hurting anyone.
originally posted by: marg6043
But you still have to prove that this problem is indicative of the entire industry. Again all you've shown is at the most that we have a bad apple or two in the bunch.
If it's a problem anywhere in the industry, it needs to be corrected. Unless you would approve plans to make people sick just to drum up business for doctors, you can't say this is acceptable. If national lobbying groups support this practice, that's a real problem.
originally posted by: marg6043
That STILL isn't all of them. Heck, it's not even all the clinics in Texas (her home state). And she lobbies AGAINST abortions not for them. I'd think her views are a little biased as far as identifying nationwide problems with abortion clinics. Sorry but you are really trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You are making an egregious leap in logic and trying to pin the testimony from ONE ex-abortion worker turned lifer into actions of the entire industry. Using your logic, we should disband the Catholic church because some priests are pedophiles in it.
She's not "biased" because she was on one side, and changed her point of view based on what she saw. That's educated, not biased. She isn't the only former abortion worker to talk about issues, either. Whistle blowers from that sector are as credible as from any other.
An investigation would help, but the abortion people don't want that, either. Any time anyone wants to investigate, "privacy" is thrown around like a shield. Privacy allowed Gosnell to do what he did for so long. He's not alone. Even if you approve of abortion, would you approve of what she says is happening, if it's true?
originally posted by: JuniorDisco
That's ridiculous. And complete sophistry. Legal abortions are by any measure much safer, despite not being risk free, so the argument absolutely stands. You just want to exclude it.
The logical conclusion of your argument is to abolish all safety measures in anything, since sometimes they fail. Planes occasionally crash, so clearly air flight should be completely unregulated because planes would still crash. Their number being apparently immaterial.
originally posted by: theMediator
Sex education wasn't what was pushed, it was low dose birth control that was given to teenagers thinking they we`re protected.
Sex education isn't evil, sex isn't evil...
Deception, however, is.
originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
But if you make abortion illegal then your own comments mean that underground abortions will be inherently unsafe!
Most abortions should be illegal. All, in my eyes, but I could deal with cases of rape or serious medical issues. That isn't what most are for these days. If abortions were not legal, women would have to actually think more seriously about the consequences of their actions. If one isn't responsible enough to raise a child, then one isn't responsible enough to be having sex.
Many clinics here do make money. Even those receiving tax dollars, such as Planned Parenthood, make money. None of them do it at no profit.
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm not sure what to say about the above, other than the fact that you have again failed to address my point. Making abortions illegal on moral grounds is hopelessly unrealistic. It's always going to happen, for reasons that you don't seem to grasp. And once again - if you make abortion illegal then you drive it underground, where it will continue to happen - and be very, very, unsafe. Are you going to tell some desperate 15-year-old that her lack of morals means that she can't have an abortion? Are you really that cruel?
originally posted by: destination now
So now you're saying that people in the US are having abortions for different reasons than they do in the UK? And don't say that's not what you're saying, because you are clearly ignoring the fact that in the UK, there is no profit to be made, but abortions still happens, and you're straight back into...clinics in the US making money, so it can only be extrapolated from that, that people in the UK are having abortions for different reasons than in the US, which is, yet again, totally ridiculous.
originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm not sure what to say about the above, other than the fact that you have again failed to address my point. Making abortions illegal on moral grounds is hopelessly unrealistic. It's always going to happen, for reasons that you don't seem to grasp. And once again - if you make abortion illegal then you drive it underground, where it will continue to happen - and be very, very, unsafe. Are you going to tell some desperate 15-year-old that her lack of morals means that she can't have an abortion? Are you really that cruel?
If it's illegal, then there can be, and should be, prosecution for doing it. Jail time for the women and the providers. If that happens, then a lot of people won't be getting them, because they won't want to risk it. As for "cruel", I think poisoning or cutting up a tiny human being is cruel. The fifteen-year-old can be taught before the fact that sex isn't something she should be practicing, till she's ready and willing to raise a child, in case her birth control doesn't work. I think it's cruel teaching kids that age that they can have sex, and no one minds, and it's "acceptable". They aren't old enough, or mature enough, mentally or emotionally, even if they might be physically. When I was that age, I knew all I needed to know, and I abstained, even with some good opportunities, because I didn't want to risk a pregnancy. No free and legal abortion to fall back on would make more people think about it before they acted.
If someone isn't responsible enough to be a parent, they aren't responsible enough for sex.
originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
But if you make abortion illegal then your own comments mean that underground abortions will be inherently unsafe!
Most abortions should be illegal. All, in my eyes, but I could deal with cases of rape or serious medical issues. That isn't what most are for these days. If abortions were not legal, women would have to actually think more seriously about the consequences of their actions. If one isn't responsible enough to raise a child, then one isn't responsible enough to be having sex.
originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
originally posted by: destination now
So now you're saying that people in the US are having abortions for different reasons than they do in the UK? And don't say that's not what you're saying, because you are clearly ignoring the fact that in the UK, there is no profit to be made, but abortions still happens, and you're straight back into...clinics in the US making money, so it can only be extrapolated from that, that people in the UK are having abortions for different reasons than in the US, which is, yet again, totally ridiculous.
For what reasons do you think most have them? And of course there is profit to be made. Someone is paying for the clinic space, and the staff, and the materials and equipment used, so there is someone making a profit. Even if tax money is used, someone is still collecting those funds. Claiming there is "no profit" isn't being honest.
Here, the clinics DO run for profit, in most cases.
None of that is about the reasons, though, that women seek abortions. The clinics do it for the money. If you want to discuss why the women do it, make a thread for that.
originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I think that you have a hopelessly unrealistic view of humanity. And I also think that you are projecting your own experience onto others. Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. As I said on another reply I don't like abortion, but I recognise that it fits a need. Cutting off access to it and bringing in legal punishment for it is staggeringly doctrinaire and, dare I say it, also hopelessly naïve. There will always be a need for it, no matter much you might fulminate against it and lecture people. And I have to point something else out. I'm from the UK and there is no movement to restrict or ban abortion here. Take a look at the history of abortion in Ireland so see what can go wrong with banning it.
originally posted by: yorkshirelad
Oh I see it's up to the woman is it. She has to live with the consequences including morals dictated by men.....like yourself, whilst the man walks away to sh.g another woman next saturday.
How about this : if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy and wishes an abortion you can prevent her only if the man gets a vasectomy. How about that rule? Seems perfectly fair and even to me.....
This is typical male bible thumping nonsense. You will stoning women next for having sex without permission (as they do elsewhere in the world!).
originally posted by: destination now
You're just going round in circles now...you've just admitted that women have reasons for seeking abortions, and it is that which drives the demand, not profit seeking by providers. And abortion services are part of the overall NHS budget in the UK, yes there are staff costs, overheads etc, but these costs are often included in the maternity services, so the staff are getting paid anyway as are the overheads for the buildings, so it really is a moot point
So now you're saying that people in the US are having abortions for different reasons than they do in the UK? And don't say that's not what you're saying, because you are clearly ignoring the fact that in the UK, there is no profit to be made, but abortions still happens, and you're straight back into...clinics in the US making money, so it can only be extrapolated from that, that people in the UK are having abortions for different reasons than in the US, which is, yet again, totally ridiculous.
originally posted by: destination now
And there are enough abortion threads on ATS anyway, we don't need another, but I will stand by my initial statement that the premise of sex education and contraception being made available in order to get women pregnant and thus to elicit profit from a subsequent abortion, really is crazy talk imo and is just some religious zealot's way of castigating women even more, putting pressure on them to conform to some sort of ridiculous ideal that they shouldn't be having sex unless they are in a relationship and want to have babies..that's what it all boils down to and if you can't see that for yourself, then no one else can make you see it (and notably I don't think there is one other person on this thread who thinks that the OP is accurate, despite their personal opinions on the morality of abortion)