Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive

a reply to: maddy21
To establish some credibility after making your own thread untrustworthy by editing the news article yourself, you really should answer the questions being put to you. If you are so incensed by what is going on, why distort the events by editing the headline? What purpose does that serve?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: maddy21

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: maddy21
a reply to: Xcathdra
* - who the people were who started the fire and
* - what connection they have to NEO Nazis?
* - explain how anti Kiev forces got involved.
* - Then go one further and explain who started the violence? -

*Ukrainian Ultra Nationalists and Maiden supports as per the RT and Life news sources i posted earlier
*Only Neo Nazis in Ukraine has been known to burn down buildings as seen in Kiev and now seen in Odessa , and only Neo Nazis would really cultivate so much hate for Russians to actually burn them ...
* Pro Russians protesters were in the building ??
* Started by the people who brought the Molotov Cocktail draped in Ukrainian flag ?

a reply to: DeadSeraph
Anyone who watched the livestream, knew what happened, even the bbc and sky news pointed out it was pro Kiev supporters who set fire to the trade union building. I'm not saying they weren't provoked as the pro Russian group shot pro Kiev protesters with live ammo. They did not burn themselves down though. That was done by an angry mob of pro Ukrainians using pre prepared Molotov cocktails, helped by a failure of the police to control the situation.

Both groups were in the wrong, the lack of control by the police just added to the mayhem.

Very surprised some people think the pro Russians burnt themselves to death, when its clear what happened to anyone. Seems people are looking for excuses, wanting to point the finger elsewhere.

The benefits of watching a live stream is that you get to witness what happened before the media gets to put their spin on events.

originally posted by: maddy21


The opening RT News claimed the buildings were burnt by Ultra Nationalists ,

Another lie -
Title - Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive (GRAPHIC IMAGES)
First sentence - Dozens of people died in flames in Odessa, when radicals set ablaze the local House of Trade Unions with anti-government protesters blocked inside

My Russian is not up to par - please point out where it states ultra nationalists?

rad·i·cal [rad-i-kuhl]

adjective

1. of or going to the root or origin; fundamental: a radical difference.


2. thoroughgoing or extreme, especially as regards change from accepted or traditional forms: a radical change in the policy of a company.


3. favoring drastic political, economic, or social reforms: radical ideas; radical and anarchistic ideologues.


4. forming a basis or foundation.


5. existing inherently in a thing or person: radical defects of character.

**Section 6-8 removed as it deals with math**

noun

9. a person who holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles; extremist.


10. a person who advocates fundamental political, economic, and social reforms by direct and often uncompromising methods.

now please point out how this term does not apply to both sides? Please point out where Ultra Nationalist is in this definition and please point out where it states neo Nazi groups?

originally posted by: maddy21
the only Ultra Nationalists who can burn buildings in Ukraine are Neo Nazis ..

in addition to Pro Russian forces who have been caught inciting acts against Ethnic Russians / Russian supporters to incite even more anger towards the other.

Please tell me you really are not that naive to think this is one way.

originally posted by: maddy21

What i find suspicious is you attacking the News without doing any serious research on the subject .. And now Since i brought you another news source you are some how using that as an excuse to attack the RT ??

Typical...

Get called out and cant refute the facts you attack the person.

I have already pointed out RT does not support your claims. Maybe you should read posts before accusing someone of something that's not true eh?

originally posted by: maddy21
Desperate much ?

Not at all since this was reported on a day ago and has been discussed in another thread where you are actively participating yet ignoring what's being stated there as well.

Bravo

originally posted by: LarryLove
a reply to: maddy21
To establish some credibility after making your own thread untrustworthy by editing the news article yourself, you really should answer the questions being put to you. If you are so incensed by what is going on, why distort the events by editing the headline? What purpose does that serve?

I am answering, but..first they attacked me without watching the video, then they attacked RT, after that they attacked Life news ..

And yeah BTW...Anti Russian threads seem to run just fine in ATS "RUSSIA Declares war on Ukraine thread" . So much for not distorting information

I used to be rather doubtful of people shilling on ATS but the influx of pro Russia nonsense is changing my mind. Not just because I disagree with it (I disagree with many things and don't find the supporters to be shilly) but because I have seen a ton of new/low post accounts that only focus on the Ukraine and how Russia is wonderful. Not saying the OP falls into this category.

When I start to suspect something I go and look at the member's authored threads and then go to their profile and look at what they post/where. It get's a little obvious *cough*.

The thing that worries me is that these obvious comments/threads seem to attract and be supported by the anti-establishment crowd here. The kind that blindly agree with them because the US is 'the man' all the while not realizing that Russia is a far scarier version of what they hold in disdain. I call these people prison rapists because the argument usually boils down to something like "Well the US does that all the time so it's OK for Russia to do it or you're a hypocrite!" which sounds a lot like rapists deserve to get raped in jail, which is amazingly hypocritical.

originally posted by: Domo1
I used to be rather doubtful of people shilling on ATS but the influx of pro Russia nonsense is changing my mind. Not just because I disagree with it (I disagree with many things and don't find the supporters to be shilly) but because I have seen a ton of new/low post accounts that only focus on the Ukraine and how Russia is wonderful. Not saying the OP falls into this category.

When I start to suspect something I go and look at the member's authored threads and then go to their profile and look at what they post/where. It get's a little obvious *cough*.

The thing that worries me is that these obvious comments/threads seem to attract and be supported by the anti-establishment crowd here. The kind that blindly agree with them because the US is 'the man' all the while not realizing that Russia is a far scarier version of what they hold in disdain. I call these people prison rapists because the argument usually boils down to something like "Well the US does that all the time so it's OK for Russia to do it or you're a hypocrite!" which sounds a lot like rapists deserve to get raped in jail, which is amazingly hypocritical.

So every monkey telling you that 9/11 was caused by office fires put no flags up at the moment?
Telling really...

originally posted by: Xcathdra

First of all does it make a difference if i said Ultra or Radical considering RT quiet clearly says its NAtinalists which either way started burning the building ?
Why are you simply ignoring information provided to you and constantly attacking me in the process... The starting 3-4 posts have all the information on who is responsible .. I claim Neo nazis because normal Ukrainian Nationalists would not kill Pro Russians, only Neo Nazis would .. maybe learn to read and comprehend information before lecturing me about propaganda ?

a reply to: maddy21

There are all sorts of threads here but I am sure you feel very strongly about what is going on in the Ukraine and truth be told, none of us know really what is happening. Don't let your emotions get in the way of reporting what is going on out there.

originally posted by: Domo1
I used to be rather doubtful of people shilling on ATS but the influx of pro Russia nonsense is changing my mind. Not just because I disagree with it (I disagree with many things and don't find the supporters to be shilly) but because I have seen a ton of new/low post accounts that only focus on the Ukraine and how Russia is wonderful. Not saying the OP falls into this category.

When I start to suspect something I go and look at the member's authored threads and then go to their profile and look at what they post/where. It get's a little obvious *cough*.

The thing that worries me is that these obvious comments/threads seem to attract and be supported by the anti-establishment crowd here. The kind that blindly agree with them because the US is 'the man' all the while not realizing that Russia is a far scarier version of what they hold in disdain. I call these people prison rapists because the argument usually boils down to something like "Well the US does that all the time so it's OK for Russia to do it or you're a hypocrite!" which sounds a lot like rapists deserve to get raped in jail, which is amazingly hypocritical.

Nationalists burning buildings similar to what happened in Kiev
Pro Russian protesters dying (surely you cannot expect Pro Russians to kill Pro Russians)
Pictures were Molotov Cocktail being brought in covered with Ukrainian flag
Known historical Hatred of Neo nazis towards Russians

Its basically 2+2 = 4


What else am i supposed think ?

originally posted by: maddy21First of all does it make a difference if i said Ultra or Radical considering RT quiet clearly says its NAtinalists which either way started burning the building ?

Absolutely because their is a MASSIVE difference in what the definitions are.

Let me counter - Is there a difference between Nazi SS and Russian Army units? Ukrainian Army Units? US Army units?
They are all military units, all in service to a government, all sworn to obey the orders given to them by their superiors.

Is it right to state SS units have invaded Chechnya twice now in the last 10-20 years?
Is it right to state Ukrainian units have invaded Kaliningrad?
Is it right to state US units are fighting Ukrainians?

Do you now understand why in all things context is king?

The term used is Radical - A noun / adjetive - I provided you with the definition.

Ultra

ul·tra [uhl-truh]


adjective

1. going beyond what is usual or ordinary; excessive; extreme.

noun

2. an extremist, as in politics, religion, fashion, etc.


3. ( initial capital letter ) Military . the British code name for intelligence gathered by decrypting German wireless communications enciphered on the Enigma machine during World War II.

na·tion·al·ist [nash-uh-nl-ist, nash-nuh-list] Show IPA


noun

1. a person devoted to nationalism.


2. ( initial capital letter ) a member of a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.

adjective

3. Also, na·tion·al·is·tic. of, pertaining to, or promoting nationalism: the beginnings of a nationalist movement.


4. ( initial capital letter ) of, pertaining to, or noting a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.

Why is this important? Because it drastically changes the perception people have while implying traits / qualities that are not necessarily present.

Second using those terms for the basis of your opinion is fine, however you did NOT do that. You distorted the article by outright lying by using terms not used in the article.

As you may notice, the terms above can apply to both sides in this mess. Your use of the terms and the manner in which you used it implies something the article does NOT state. Try as you might to argue similarities, none exist except for in your head.

originally posted by: maddy21
Why are you simply ignoring information provided to you and constantly attacking me in the process...

Because the same BS shows up in multiple threads. Even when its called out in one, the person still tries to pass it off as something its not somewhere else.

Which is the reason, as I stated before, why I called it out. Its been posted in the Russia declares war on Ukraine thread a few hours ago. The same claims were made there as were the rebuttals yet no one could support the very claims you made in this thread.

You don't get it... I want information from both sides, contrary to what people accuse me of being. Kernels of truth appear in both sides versions. Intentionally misleading people by insinuating something that is not stated in an article while trying to pass it off as something official is just crap and does not help.

originally posted by: maddy21
The starting 3-4 posts have all the information on who is responsible .. I claim Neo nazis because normal Ukrainian Nationalists would not kill Pro Russians, only Neo Nazis would .. maybe learn to read and comprehend information before lecturing me about propaganda ?

Its the fact you mislead / lied by changing the title to something that was not used.
You made claims about Neo Nazis which are not used in the article in the op.

Your presentation and intentional manipulation of the initial information is BS - plain and simple. It causes real issues when incidents occur that are exactly what you are describing. It forces people to discount anything you post / claim because you lied and covered it in a news article that has no reference to the claims you are stating it has.

You don't understand the damage that crap causes to both sides.

Your opinion is fine however, trying to pass it of as a truth wrapped in a deception covered in a lie crosses the line. The goal is to locate the truth and people like you don't make it easy. Not only does it call into question your posts and claims there in, but the sources of information you use.

Make your case based on the facts and make your opinion based on what you think is going on and why / how you came to that conclusion and let others decide what to believe or disbelieve.

People like you and posts like this one are a problem and to be frank, i'm pissed I have to keep reading thru the BS only to find nothing claimed occurred in the article posted.

If you and the Pro Russians are right, then the truth will come out without the need for others to lie manipulate and mislead to get it out there.

Make sense now?
understand why I am pissed?

I cant look at the Ukraine news anymore , having a hard time believing all the armed people are "defensive elements" because good change is a lot of them are GRU/spetsnaz.

As for my western Governments , they probably sponsored the resistance into booting out the previous regime because they want a piece of the Pie , thus having a great role in what turned out into a mexican standoff with multiple groups fighting against each other.

TheGreazel

a reply to: Xcathdra

You decide:

The ongoing military crackdown on anti-government activists in eastern Ukraine has been portrayed as a noble quest of freeing the locals “kept hostage” by the so-called “terrorists” and “separatists.” Coup-imposed Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov recently branded the campaign “an anti-terrorist operation against the sabotage group of the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Russian Federation” on his Facebook page.

No need of translation:



Are you aware that we are talking about a country of 45 million people? We have an unelected government winning their positions with help of Molotov-coctails and tens of thousands of protesters in an economically degraded country.

How democratically deal with your opponents? With tested methods: Molotov's. If you have not enough supporters, wait for a football-match, mob allways there, you only have to direct then to right direction...

Are people here really saying that pro Russian forces set THEMSELVES on fire? I suppose they shot themselves on the way out the windows too, then for good measure kicked the crap outta themselves in the street. You people are grasping

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: maddy21First of all does it make a difference if i said Ultra or Radical considering RT quiet clearly says its NAtinalists which either way started burning the building ?

Absolutely because their is a MASSIVE difference in what the definitions are.

The term used is Radical - A noun / adjetive - I provided you with the definition.

Ultra

ul·tra [uhl-truh]


adjective

1. going beyond what is usual or ordinary; excessive; extreme.

noun

2. an extremist, as in politics, religion, fashion, etc.


3. ( initial capital letter ) Military . the British code name for intelligence gathered by decrypting German wireless communications enciphered on the Enigma machine during World War II.

na·tion·al·ist [nash-uh-nl-ist, nash-nuh-list] Show IPA


noun

1. a person devoted to nationalism.


2. ( initial capital letter ) a member of a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.

adjective

3. Also, na·tion·al·is·tic. of, pertaining to, or promoting nationalism: the beginnings of a nationalist movement.


4. ( initial capital letter ) of, pertaining to, or noting a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.

Why is this important? Because it drastically changes the perception people have while implying traits / qualities that are not necessarily present.

Second using those terms for the basis of your opinion is fine, however you did NOT do that. You distorted the article by outright lying by using terms not used in the article.

As you may notice, the terms above can apply to both sides in this mess. Your use of the terms and the manner in which you used it implies something the article does NOT state. Try as you might to argue similarities, none exist except for in your head.

originally posted by: maddy21
Why are you simply ignoring information provided to you and constantly attacking me in the process...

Because the same BS shows up in multiple threads. Even when its called out in one, the person still tries to pass it off as something its not somewhere else.

Which is the reason, as I stated before, why I called it out. Its been posted in the Russia declares war on Ukraine thread a few hours ago. The same claims were made there as were the rebuttals yet no one could support the very claims you made in this thread.

You don't get it... I want information from both sides, contrary to what people accuse me of being. Kernels of truth appear in both sides versions. Intentionally misleading people by insinuating something that is not stated in an article while trying to pass it off as something official is just crap and does not help.

originally posted by: maddy21
The starting 3-4 posts have all the information on who is responsible .. I claim Neo nazis because normal Ukrainian Nationalists would not kill Pro Russians, only Neo Nazis would .. maybe learn to read and comprehend information before lecturing me about propaganda ?

Its the fact you mislead / lied by changing the title to something that was not used.
You made claims about Neo Nazis which are not used in the article in the op.

Your presentation and intentional manipulation of the initial information is BS - plain and simple. It causes real issues when incidents occur that are exactly what you are describing. It forces people to discount anything you post / claim because you lied and covered it in a news article that has no reference to the claims you are stating it has.

You don't understand the damage that crap causes to both sides.

Your opinion is fine however, trying to pass it of as a truth wrapped in a deception covered in a lie crosses the line. The goal is to locate the truth and people like you don't make it easy. Not only does it call into question your posts and claims there in, but the sources of information you use.

Make your case based on the facts and make your opinion based on what you think is going on and why / how you came to that conclusion and let others decide what to believe or disbelieve.

People like you and posts like this one are a problem and to be frank, i'm pissed I have to keep reading thru the BS only to find nothing claimed occurred in the article posted.

If you and the Pro Russians are right, then the truth will come out without the need for others to lie manipulate and mislead to get it out there.

Make sense now?
understand why I am pissed?

First half of your post is nonsense .. Ultra or Radical they killed Pro Russian protesters in the most Gruesome way . Perception is based on what people do not on what words i used before a sentence

Information from both sides ? whats that ..those Pro Russians in to building decided to burn themselves ? Or maybe the Pro Russian decided to kill Pro Russians for the lolz ? So you attack RT and attack LIfe news and call them non credible and then you claim you want information from both sides ? IS this a bad joke ?

Right and attacking me nonstop instead of spending your time looking at live feeds , videos on what actually happened is going to help you ? Whats going on in Ukraine is simple common sense . The only BS i see honestly is in your post which in last couple of minutes have been relentlessly attacking me and when that failed attacked RT and life news and when that failed you are back to attacking me .. You haven't made any relevant posts to the thread except for being in complete Denial

a reply to: TheGreazel

You are right, all ukrainian men older than 45 served as soldier of Soviet Union for two years. Who knows, how many of them was in Spetsnaz?

The USA/EU/IMF wanted all of the ukrainian pie, and now the ordered the puppet government to take it back. They are trying it third time:

originally posted by: maddy21
Nationalists burning buildings similar to what happened in Kiev

The very footage RT got caught using on Russian TV claiming they were attacking Ethnic Russians all over Ukraine.

originally posted by: maddy21
Pro Russian protesters dying (surely you cannot expect Pro Russians to kill Pro Russians)

Absolutely if you look at in form the position of Russian pulling an invasion of Ukraine via internal discontent. All nations at one point have used false flag operations to achieve a result. As an example its been suggested the US government knew about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing to stop it in order to force the US entrance into the war on the side for the allies.

Ill throw out 9/11 even though I don't think the US government was behind it, but some people do.

The Nazis dressed as Polish forces and staged a border incident to justify its invasion of Poland (sound familiar for Crimea? right down to using the term Ethnic "insert nationality").

The deaths of civilians by forces of another nation can cause a massive surge in nationality, allowing a government to perform actions they might not have been able to pull off using normal means. The reaction you just gave is EXACTLY what those types of actions are designed for -

To have rank and file civilians take a position of the government with no question as to what happened, just unchallenged belief. To think that does not occur is naïve and is exactly what the governments want in those types of operations.

Just like an ally attacking another ally in hopes to pass it off as a 3rd nation attacking neutral shipping (Israel / US / Egypt incident).

The Gulf of Tonkin incident was staged to push public support for further escalation in Vietnam.

etc etc etc

originally posted by: maddy21
Pictures were Molotov Cocktail being brought in covered with Ukrainian flag

And if they were covered in Russian Flags or Nazi Flags would you assume they are Russian or Nazi citizens?

Please, I BEG you, stop being this naive and learn.

originally posted by: maddy21
Known historical Hatred of Neo nazis towards Russians

and known historical hatred of Germans because of the Nazi regime by the USSR 0 Namely Akliningrad, which was German territory up to the end of WWII, where the german population was deported and replaced by Russians.

originally posted by: maddy21
Its basically 2+2 = 4

No its not... Its the chaos theory and the use of fractal geometry and theorems where 2 can actually represent a negative integer and G naught can represent infinity.

originally posted by: maddy21
What else am i supposed think ?

Independent thought allows you to think what you want. Don't waste your brain by believing everything you are told. Exercise your god given right to arrive at your own conclusion based on the information present.

Its one of the greatest gifts we have and the only thing to date that can undermine despots and overthrow dictators and its allowed humanity to - to borrow a quote - 'Cause it's next. 'Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire; and we crossed the ocean and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what's next.

Never ever give up your independent thought.

a reply to: maddy21

I am guessing you have a personal connection to the situation in the Ukraine and/or Russia. I also think you are investing too much emotion which is clouding your response to what happened as detailed in the internet sources you have linked to. No one here knows what happened and the best chance for truth (before any perceived truths get hijacked) is for an independent enquiry to begin establishing what may of occurred. No doubt there has and will be atrocities committed by both sides. Russia is up to nefarious political games and the power vacuum in the Ukraine doesn't bode well for chance of democracy.

a reply to: maghun

You do understand the Parliament in Kiev was elected in 2012 and Russia actually stated the elections were valid and acceptable.

You do understand Yanukovych signed an agreement that reinstated the 2004 Constitution within 48 hours right.
you do know that under the 2004 Constitution there is an expedited process for impeachment right?
You know that when the 2004 Constitution was first put into effect, Russian media actually spent some time discussing that impact and noted that if opposition parties work together, there is a high probability Yanukovych would be impeached/removed from office right?
You do know that after the Constitution was reinstated, by Constitutional 2/3 approval requirements, that his impeachment occurred, and also met the 2/3 constitutional requirements.

You do know that armed masked gunmen stormed the government building in Crimea and took the elected Prime minister hostage right.
You do know those same masked armed men put their own "Prime minister" into place with no elections by the locals right.
You do know those same masked armed gunmen with no insignias we saw on tv those weeks were in fact Russian soldiers, admitted by Putin himself on Russian media right?


based on the info I really don't think you know what a coup is and is not, let alone an elected government (Kiev) and an self anointed one (Crimea) that sold out Ukrainians by misrepresenting the vote (per UNHCR April 2014 report).

a reply to: Xcathdra

Indeed but be humble enough to accept when you are wrong or have been duped into a particular way of thinking and then form more reasoned, sound ideas. Great post.