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Stanton Friedman, Bob Lazar, David Icke the Best and the worst

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posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 05:28 PM
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Just curious who people think has the most and the least credibility among researchers in the UFO field.

I think Stanton Friedman has the most in my opinion and Icke has the least.

Stanton seems to show some skepticism in his research and doest try to fit the lasted fad into his theory's

I cant figure Bob Lazar out, I think he might be there to spread disinformation but something about him just doesn't meet the eye. I think he knows SOMETHING I am just not sure what it is.

I think Richard Hogan has SOME credibility but not a whole lot. I think he believes what he says but that doesn't make it true

Icke I think is just a con artist that has found his niche.

What dopes everybody else think? Did I leave your favorite or worst out?

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Amuk]




posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 06:30 PM
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I almost want to believe Lazar. His sincerity gives credence to his tale. However I think thats indeed what it is. I also feel that he may have been a tool of disinformation. Like Dr. Paul Bennewitz, he probably was totally unaware of it.

However, when you look at Stanton Friedmans investigation of Lazar, a bit of a different picture emerges. I think we can all agree that Mr. Friedman is as thorough of an investigator as they come.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 06:44 PM
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100 per cent of what David Icke says rings true, except when he gets into that unprovable Lizard stuff and a few other things, which may well be a cyber mechanism to deflect too much upon his more serious concepts. After all people can just say "that's nuts," and so all the rest of his stuff is "nuts," and we will not listen, and we will not waste our resouces on this "lunatic." Perhaps his fling with the unprovable Lizard story is simply something with survival value.

[edit on 25-11-2004 by SkipShipman]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 06:49 PM
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Exactly. I read two of David Icke's books and when he gets to the Reptilian Agenda material, I just laugh out loud.

David Icke, if you are reading this why are you so persistent that certain influential world leaders can shape shift from their human form for to an ancient reptilian body? Why do you do this Icke? Everything you say is somewhat sound and believable, but why tarnish every conspiracy theory with this notion of lizards taking over the world.

Sometimes I think that he's being forced to include this into his material in order to discredit his information.


[edit on 11/26/2004 by Simulacra]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 07:26 PM
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You really never know about some of the anecdotes, what people say when they independently arrive upon that Lizard story, or when Princess Diana called the Windsor royals "lizards." Aside from the allegedly "cold hard," and calculating metaphor, and the "repetilian," portion of the human brain as reflexive, you wonder and it provokes thought as would a good science fiction story. Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote in that "factual," style, but his Mars stories were still fiction.

If there is a "lizard factor," it surely is at least in the human mind, and also a powerful metaphor and "metaphrand," if you have read Julian Jaynes. The mythology is definitely there, and among the elites who rule. If anything it is a common thread. But saying "there is a lizard alien from the fourth density," right in back of me directing me, needs a lot more proof than saying "the Federal Reserve creates money out of nothing, hence it is a fraud." The latter alone might get you exiled or worse even if you are repeating what you read in the Wall Street Journal and the dumb government doesn't know it. But when you mix it with that unprovable lizard story, even if "true," it is such a stretch but you gotta admit he is still alive. Well somebody put up some money and unmask the lizard man behind the throne!

Of course they already did that in a TV mini series during the 80s, so if such a wild yarn is true, disclosure is sometimes the best way to cover things up, after all it becomes passe once published.

[edit on 25-11-2004 by SkipShipman]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 07:36 PM
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In having attended an extensive seminar with David Icke, I can state that he is sincere in his ideas and has some good research about symbology in traditional religions. But he is misled about his belief that there are shape-shifting Reptilians in high levels of government and that they control this planet. On the other hand, there are indications that they would like to eventually control the government, as part of their long-term agenda, but they are not close to doing so.

John Lear was interviewed in this forum. One of the things he confirmed is the story of a security guard at the Dulce Facility who went to prison for publicly discussing his experience and awareness about aliens. He was just a security guard. If you get someone who has documentation to prove that he was in any position within a top secret government installation and that he saw aliens there, that constitutes a credible witness.

The same applies to Bob Lazar. He is indeed listed as having worked at the classified government installations that he claims. All this business about where he went to school and what his degrees are is largely irrelevant. He proved that he worked there and he therefore constitutes a credible witness. It is only a plus that he has a background in physics and engineering. The man could have been only a janitor at Area 51; it makes no difference as far as being a valid witness.


Stanton Friedman is a good researcher in the overall sense but I think he harbors prejudice especially in his appraisal of Bob Lazar.

Id also like to point out that Bob Lazar had a gun pointed at his head by a federal agent and was threatened by them to keep quiet or else. He even brought groups of people out to places that had UFO sightings near a top-secret government installation (knowing full well the danger involved) and they did indeed see them and photograph them. This was reported on a recently aired documentary on The History Channel.

I have debated people that I believed to be governmental disinformation agents, e.g., over at the FTTOUFO forum. Trust me...Bob Lazar is not one of them.

Here are some earmarks of a disinformation specialist:

1. They try to downplay the hostile and self-serving nature of the aliens.
2. They try to downplay the credibility of valid witnesses.
3. They try to come up with irrelevant information to discredit abductees and serious UFO researchers.
4. They flame sincere abductees and serious UFO researchers.

Bob Lazar does none of these things.

Want a good candidate for being a disinformation agent?

Phil Klaus

Quoted from the above site:

>

SkipShipman,

I'd like to compliment you on your signature quote. It comes from my all-time favorite Classic Star Trek episode, Errand Of Mercy. That particular episode was directed by John Newland, the former host of the series One Step Beyond.

My avatar is not only an illustration of Heart Chakra Radiance but also one of an Ascended Being of Light. If anything, the fictitious Organians are an inspired archetype of rarefied spiritual development.






[edit on 25-11-2004 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 08:00 PM
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I am starting to seriously gravitate towards Ike's "Lizard factor" after my own research has supported a lot of what he has said, even though I did not set out to research him:

1. US is run by a nepotist European bloodline royals.
2. The Queen of England collects tax from the US and also gives orders to US social security, the federal government and the judicial system.
3. US still remains a European colony and 70% of it's economy is run by elite european families.
4. The NWO's origins date as far as the Roman empire and lead to globalization after the imperial era.
5. They are involved in secret satanical socities that perform ritualistic child abuse.
5. They are all jointly involved in the NWO development, and simutaneously calling out for one and laying out plans for totaliterian regimes.
6. There are aliens and they are involved with our governments, and both are keeping us in the dark. One such reported factions are reptillian aliens, and reported to be hostile to humas.
7. There is a lot of historically documented anecdotes of shape-shifting reptillians in a diverse range of cultures

If one were to sum up all these points, they would be left with something that sounds a lot like what Ike is saying:

A group of reptillian races, that were represented as evil by the bible, with hostile agendas towards humans, that systematically poisoned, murdered and retarded human society over a milllenia and which is culminating into it's total enslavement. I remember times when I use to read the bible and laugh at the notions of demons and evil serpants, but really today, I'm not so sure.

There is so much happening in the world, that it is difficult to say if anything is impossible now. Deny all the BS you have been fed by the propaganda machine called education. Go out there with a blank mind, be a child again, and find out for yourself what the world is all about.

I think I should read some of Ikes books and see where it leads me.

[edit on 25-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 09:50 PM
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What about Richard Hoagland the face on Mars man?

I think he is sincere but I don't have a lot of faith in his work although I must admit that it MIGHT be true. I place about even with Lazar in the believability range



[edit on 27-11-2004 by Amuk]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
What about Paul Hogan the face on Mars man?


Paul Hogan? The only Paul Hogan I know of is the Australian actor.

Perhaps you mean Richard C. Hoagland.

I think that the face on Mars is a valid archeological find.




posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 09:06 AM
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"You call that a face? Now THAT's a face!"
(inside Crocodile Dundee/Hoagland joke)

I'd have to agree with Friedman being probably the most credible and respected.

However I also agree with Paul_Richard regarding Lazar...but I believe Lazar was an unwitting disinfo agent. I believe he was shown some incredible things, and then turned loose knowing full well he'd regurgitate them. I had first heard of "The Hangar" in '83 as a Lockheed brat, and from other brats whose dads had once worked at Groom (or who had other friends who did, etc.) and they talked about it being in the side of the mountain, with camo'd doors, etc. and near Papoose. So, when I heard of Lazar's claims, it certainly clicked into place.

I think Icke's work regarding the NWO is impressive, but like many others, he loses me with the "Reptoids" which then starts to make the whole sound like bunk. Imho...Icke has gone WAY out on that limb....



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 09:25 AM
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for me, stanton friedman has the highest credibility, his research is very serious and not that far fetched. i had many discussions with friends about the whole ufo-topic and his work made some of them seriously thinking, that's worth a lot. bob lazar's story is quite interesting but if i remember right his scientific or educational background could never be verified but i could be wrong with that..give me some hints


david icke.. i don't know what to say about this..sounds too far fetched and then the whole reptile-shapeshifting thing..but again i you have links/resources that support his claims i would be glad to read more.

one question, what do you people think about dr. michael wolf ? at least it could be verified that his scientific/educational background was real, and that he worked for example in los alamos for the gov, or i'm confusing something here...perhaps you can tell me ?

but his claim, that we are in a "preparation" phase and are constantly fed with aliens, or the possibility that we are not alone etc. via the media sounds much more plausible then the reptile-shapeshifting-nwo stuff.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 09:27 AM
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Its interesting how many people have an issue with Ickes theory of lizards ruling the planet, especially those who firmly believe in UFOs. (how would we know what a UFO race would or would not do? suddenly we become experts on something that no one has proof of...no "credible" evidence...just the same amount of evidence that Icke has)


Gods peace

dAlen



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by dAlen
Its interesting how many people have an issue with Ickes theory of lizards ruling the planet, especially those who firmly believe in UFOs. (how would we know what a UFO race would or would not do? suddenly we become experts on something that no one has proof of...no "credible" evidence...just the same amount of evidence that Icke has)


This is what you call increduility, intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy. In fact many who lynch him, have not even given him the chance to speak for his wild theories. I am not yet a "believer" in Ike, but I am very compelled by him. What he says makes a lot of sense. Yesterday, I visited his web site and found this article that explains his position on the "reptillian connection"

I would like permission from the moderators to produce this long excerpt of his article. The rest of what follows is David's:

www.davidicke.com...

If you are new to my work, the most bizarre information you will find on this site is that concerning the reptilian connection.

I understand that. It is quite something to absorb from our conditioned version of reality. But, then, that is the very point. If you want to keep something from the people, give them a version of reality and possibility that is so far from what is really going on that even if the truth comes to light it will seem far too ludicrous and extreme for most people to believe it.



Indeed, if you do your job well enough,
the people will laugh at the truth,
call it insane, and
ridicule anyone who promotes it.
To truly understand how all the information on this site fits together into one coherent whole (which it does), you really need to read my book, The Biggest Secret. But for those who have not yet done so, here is some basic background. Please remember, however, that in the book there is an enormous amount of information to support what I am about to say.

When I reached the point some years ago where I had put together the structure through which a few people control the direction of the world (see And The Truth Shall Set You Free), it was clear that this network of secret societies and covert groups manipulating global politics, business, banking, military, media, and so on, could not have been put together in a few years or decades. It had to go back a very long time.

So I began to trace it back into what we call history. I did this in the knowledge that, for some reason, bloodline and genetics were vitally important to these manipulators, the Illuminati or Illuminated ones - illuminated into knowledge that the public never see.

I followed the trail back comfortably to the time of the Crusades in the Middle East, the 12th and 13th centuries, that kind of period, and on it went far back into the ancient world and pre-history.

There, all over the planet, you find the ancient legends and accounts of "gods" from another world who interbred with humanity to create a hybrid network of bloodlines. The Old Testament, for example, talks about the "Sons of God" who interbred with the daughters of men to create the hybrid race, the Nefilim. Before it was translated into English, that passage read "the sons of the gods", plural. But the Bible accounts are only one of so many that describe the same theme.

The Sumerian clay tablets, found in what we now call Iraq in the middle of the 19th century, tell a similar story. It is estimated they were buried around 2,000 BC, but the stories they tell go back long before that. The tablets talk of a race of "gods" from another world who brought advanced knowledge to the planet and interbred with humans to create hybrid bloodlines. These "gods" are called in the tablets, the "Anunnaki", which apparently translates as "those who from heaven to earth came."

The ancient accounts tell us that these hybrid bloodlines, the fusion of the genes of selected humans with those of the "gods", were put into the positions of ruling royal power, especially in the ancient Near and Middle East, in advanced cultures like Sumer, Babylon, and Egypt. But it happened elsewhere, also, as you will find, for example, in the amazing information provided on this site by the African Zulu shaman, Credo Mutwa, and in the incredible Credo videos, Reptilian Agenda, parts one and two. He tells the same story from the black African tradition that I have uncovered elsewhere in the world.

The accounts of the "serpent race" in ancient cultures are simply endless wherever you look and the serpent, reptilian, symbolism in relation to the Anunnaki and other versions of these "gods" is equally widespread. We see this in the Bible, for instance, with the serpent in the "Garden of Eden"- a story which clearly comes from the Sumerian accounts, as does the story of Moses in the bulrushes, a story told about a Sumerian king long before the Bible. This is why I found it so astounding when I was told by Zecharia Sitchin, the best-known translator of the Sumerian tablets, that there was no evidence of a serpent race in the ancient world. Of course there is. He also strongly advised me in relation to the serpent race"Don't go there". Why, when the evidence, ancient and modern, is so enormous?

From these bloodlines has come the origin of the "divine right of kings", the belief that only certain bloodlines have the god-given right to rule. In truth this is not the "divine" or "God" at all. It is the right to rule from the reptilian "gods" by way of your hybrid genetics.

These bloodlines later became the royal and aristocratic families of Europe and, thanks to the "Great" British Empire and the other European empires, they were exported to the Americas, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and right across into the Far East, where they connected with other reptilian hybrid bloodlines, like those, most obviously, in China, where the symbolism of the dragon is the very basis of their culture.

These reptilian-human hybrid lines became the political and economic rulers of these lands occupied by the European empires and they continue to rule these countries to this day. The United States of America has been home to hundreds of millions of people since 1776. What's more, these people came from an amazingly diverse genetic pool. And yet, wait for this, the 42 who have become Presidents of the United States are all related!!! Thirty-Three of them alone go back to Charlemagne, one of the most famous monarchs of what we call France. He just happens to be a major figure in the story of these bloodlines and their expansion out of Britain, France, Germany, and elsewhere.

The End.

Really, none of what he says doesn't make sense. It is true the rulers of this world hold from elite blood lines, which my own research has taken to as far as back as the Roman empire. David's research has taken him as far as Sumeria, where it is explictly noted that the reptillian gods interbred with mortals, and then their sons went onto assume great postions of power.

Now the only part that is admittedly outrageous, but only because it so far out from our conception of reality, is the "shape-shifting" allegation. However, it is true, the ancient reptillian gods did have the powers to "shape-shift" and assume any human form. Is it a far stretch to say that their "sons" would have have some reptillian DNA, which itself would give them some unusual non-human abilities.

I think the case forms a coherent whole and explains a lot for me personally, because I so strongly doubt that some power for seveal millenias would have such inhumane designs for complete domination and enslavement of humanity. The kind of people that so easily say 90% of humans should be dead, cannot be possibly called human. So at least on these grounds, we should not dismiss David Icke, and actually take out the time to read what he is saying.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 11:48 AM
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Allow me to summarize what Icke is saying, hehe.....


If you are new to my work, the most bizarre information you will find on this site is that concerning the reptilian connection.
I understand that. It is quite something to absorb from our conditioned version of reality. But, then, that is the very point. If you want to keep something from the people, give them a version of reality and possibility that is so far from what is really going on that even if the truth comes to light it will seem far too ludicrous and extreme for most people to believe it.
Indeed, if you do your job well enough,
the people will laugh at the truth,
call it insane, and
ridicule anyone who promotes it.


I know this whole Reptillian thing sounds crazy...but really, it's true!!!


To truly understand how all the information on this site fits together into one coherent whole (which it does), you really need to read my book, The Biggest Secret. But for those who have not yet done so, here is some basic background. Please remember, however, that in the book there is an enormous amount of information to support what I am about to say.


But to believe it, you should buy my book. Oh, did I mention? You should really buy my book!


When I reached the point some years ago where I had put together the structure through which a few people control the direction of the world (see And The Truth Shall Set You Free), it was clear that this network of secret societies and covert groups manipulating global politics, business, banking, military, media, and so on, could not have been put together in a few years or decades. It had to go back a very long time.


Now I'll try and show you the support for this insane theory... By the way, here's another book I wrote, you should really buy that one too...


So I began to trace it back into what we call history. I did this in the knowledge that, for some reason, bloodline and genetics were vitally important to these manipulators, the Illuminati or Illuminated ones - illuminated into knowledge that the public never see.


Yada, yada, yada....Basically, every reference to any strange origin of a race, or half-animal, half-human deity, etc. is all supporting my cockamamee theory, see!!!???

I'll continue to laugh at it....call it insane....and ridicule it's promotion....






[edit on 26-11-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by dAlen
Its interesting how many people have an issue with Ickes theory of lizards ruling the planet, especially those who firmly believe in UFOs. (how would we know what a UFO race would or would not do? suddenly we become experts on something that no one has proof of...no "credible" evidence...just the same amount of evidence that Icke has)


Gods peace

dAlen


Millions of years headstart for "lizards to evolve"

Let's see in 100 years We advanced drastically
Imagine millions of years

Well isn't the theory about how these reptillians control the top of the government? Why would they allow such evidence floating around? Political suicide?!?!

All over the world people have encountered these beings, one of them was information was the Zulus from africa.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by newkids123]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:06 PM
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Like just about everybody else in the UK, I used to think David Icke was as mad as a box of frogs, but this was what the powers that be wanted us to think.

One of the independent TV channels in the UK, produced a documentary about him about 4 years ago. The intention was clearly to have a bloody good laugh at this 'fruitcake'.

It started well enough, but then when they followed David around the USA, watching how his book signings and radio appearances were being cancelled without notice or explanation, the tenor of the programe changed.

Then he told them about a forthcoming meeting of this secretive organisation, the Bilderberg group, coming up in Portugal. The programme makers set up a camera outside the hotel location in Portugal and filmed events on the date David Icke had given them.

Sure enough, it did not take long before a minibus rolled up, with the blinds down to prevent people seeing inside. As the bus passed the camera, one of the blinds was raised and peering out were Tony Blair and his controller, Peter Mandelson.

OK you might say, nothing wrong with these two going to Portugal for a weekend together, but why then was it necessary for gun toting Men In Black in a Mercedes to chase the camera crew away if there was nothing to hide?

I have read David Icke's book, The Biggest Secret, and I agree that at times it is both very heavy going, and on occasions almost impossible to believe, accusing some figures with the very highest worldwide profiles of impossibly evil and bestial acts, but certainly what he says can not be ignored.


[edit on 26-11-2004 by Englishman_in_Spain]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:09 PM
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Now allow me to summarize what you are saying


He must be a fraud and hoax - because he's selling a book

What does that sound like Gazrok?



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:13 PM
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What does that sound like Gazrok?


Common sense?


Or does it make more sense that all of the people in power are reptiles in human disguises, and have been throughout time...and all of this was discovered by an ex soccer jock?

Hmm....let me think on that for a moment....okay, done!



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:47 PM
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Common sense?


So it is "common sense" that anyone who claims something, and writes a book on it so he can convey the claim, is a fraud? Try again Gazrok, what does that sound like?


Or does it make more sense that all of the people in power are reptiles in human disguises, and have been throughout time...and all of this was discovered by an ex soccer jock?


Or does it make sense that the ruling elite blood lines, belong to the same family, that can be followed back to reptillian gods of the middle east?
Does it matter who discovers this? I was an ex-sales man, so I guess if I later went on and discovered that there are underwater civilizations, I must be a fraud.

None of your arguments are rooted in reason, they are all based on incredulity and I'm sorry to say, but too much ignorance, and very hypocritical for someone who has his own outrageous claims. This is not meant as an attack. I am just being honest with you.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Perhaps you mean Richard C. Hoagland.

I think that the face on Mars is a valid archeological find.


My Bad


I changed the name



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