Russian helicopters heading to Sevastopol, Ukraine

SheopleNation
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well after reading your response, I understand now more what your position is, and I actually agree with what you're saying. Course I don't know myself what the Russian people are thinking, or if they are so sick of what we do that they might be willing to sacrifice certain freedoms, understand what I mean?

Either way, You make some very good points. I just wanted to make sure that you and I were on the same page, cause sometimes a response online can come across as condescending, even when it's not. That is the life on internet forums I guess.

~$heopleNation

No worries.. It happens and I have been on both sides of those situations. If my responses came across as condescending / arrogant its not my intent and I apologize.

I actually appreciate you asking questions for clarification. Its something I should do more often.

As for the Russian people and how they feel - I see your point. I am basing my opinion off the incidents that occurred specifically while Putin was in office (both of the positions he held) and the peoples reaction to those changes. Its one of the reasons I think Putin is so determined to gain control over the media. If he can hold onto that it will make it a lot easier to control the people.

How can people get upset about government action when they aren't allowed to know its occurring.

The next question after that is what will the people do when they find out what occurred and the manner in which it occurred in. All the media reports we are seeing don't look at the Russian peoples reactions (if they have reported on it I have not seen it so if someone can post a link it would be appreciated).

I think that is a potential factor to consider.

Char-Lee
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

I don't see Canada invading the United States over the Keystone pipeline.

Obviously not what I meant, I understand your feelings on this and my son flies an Apache so I have reason for concern.

I simply meant that when something is involving a country on your border that affects you in as many ways as this effects Russia, yes the US would feel the need to take some kind of action also.

Thank your son for me for serving.. Its appreciated.

I understand what you are saying. My point is this did not occur over night. What specifically caused Russia to violate Ukrainian sovereignty? The issues remained internal to Ukraine. Russia really has not explained what its intent is inside Ukraine, nor have they explained just how far they are going to go, how long they are going to stay, etc etc.

By doing that, being vague about operations with no clear plan provided, tells me their involvement is more than just ethnic Russians complaining about their Ukrainian government. While I understand there is a time for intervention and a time for no intervention. The issues in Ukraine did not seem to require external intervention.

The Ukrainian government issued an extradition request to Russia for their former leader. I doubt Russia will comply since it would undermine their intentions. By accepting and complying with the request, they would be acknowledging the current leadership in Ukraine is valid.

By doing that they undermine their position by admitting there is a functioning government in Ukraine.
By refusing to comply they undermine themselves in terms of working with Ukraine to find a solution.

Russia's actions do not support its stated intentions / goals.

Would it not be prudent to try and resolve internal issues instead of assisting in the confusion / problems?
Is not like the Ukrainian government is dropping chemical weapons on their people like Hussein did.

With the new government in Ukraine came irritation from Russia. I think they seriously thought the entire country would fall into chaos, which would allow them to make the argument you bring up - that the internal issues in Ukraine directly affects Russia.

When that did not happen, it forced Russia to act. In this case, the justifications used aren't supported by the facts.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


You guys do realize Russia has been a member of the IMF since 1992 right?? Ukraine also joined in 1992.

So, since Russia is a member of the IMF, is Russia acting out some IMF conspiracy towards Ukraine in an effort to support the rape of Ukraine?

Report: Russia Gives Ukraine Ultimatum To Remove Troops From Crimea

weaselzippers.us...

Can't confirm this yet but if it's true then well ..yep it's an invasion for sure.

Kuroodo
Report: Russia Gives Ukraine Ultimatum To Remove Troops From Crimea

weaselzippers.us...

Can't confirm this yet but if it's true then well ..yep it's an invasion for sure.

Gee, I wonder if Russia will stop at just demanding the Crimea...

I really hope Ukraine tells Russia where they can shove that ultimatum.

Using Pravda headlines as an example I think its been an invasion from the start.

Russia's latest justification -

"If the Crimean authorities ask for help or Russian troops are attacked, what is going to happen?"

"The republic of Crimea, in accordance with the laws of Ukraine, is subordinated to the central government. Ukraine's President has resigned, and the central legitimate power in Ukraine is hence limited in powers before early presidential elections. The deployment of troops at the request of a part of the state would automatically recognize the central government illegitimate - it would be recognized so by the country that would deploy troops.

As I was saying about Russian actions and what they choose and how they choose to discuss this issue.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Russia being a member of the IMF doesn't change the facts. Russians had already reached a deal with the Ukraine for a bailout fund independent of the EU. What your missing here is that the west wants to bailout the Ukraine on their terms so that western oligarchs will be reaping the benefits of both interest payments as well as the opportunity to buy up Ukrainian industries and resources for cheap. Russia wants the exact same thing, but has an even bigger dog in the fight due to its military interests in the region, as well as ethnic ties and history.

Russian business wants to exploit the situation in the Ukraine just as much as the West does. They were getting the bigger piece of the pie until recently.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Both, Russia and the EU, made offers.

If the IMF is not relevant then why are you and so many others trying to make the argument? Any accusations made using the IMF is also an accusation towards Russia and not just the US / EU / West.

Russia's offer required Ukraine to only deal with Russia. Not exactly a fair offer wouldn't you say?

As for who wants what -
Russian entrepreneurs invited to invest billions in Ukraine's Crimea 28.02.2014 | Source: Pravda.Ru

So when the west does it its bad.. When Russia does it its acceptable?

check...

Xcathdra
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Both, Russia and the EU, made offers.

If the IMF is not relevant then why are you and so many others trying to make the argument? Any accusations made using the IMF is also an accusation towards Russia and not just the US / EU / West.

Russia's offer required Ukraine to only deal with Russia. Not exactly a fair offer wouldn't you say?

As for who wants what -
Russian entrepreneurs invited to invest billions in Ukraine's Crimea 28.02.2014 | Source: Pravda.Ru

So when the west does it its bad.. When Russia does it its acceptable?

check...

edit on 28-2-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

The IMF is very much relevant. What I'm saying is that the fact Russia is a member nation is irrelevant. Member nations contribute funds to the IMF but that doesn't necessarily mean that each member nations interests are served by what the IMF does with those funds (or that a particular nation will profit from austerity measures or be served by the conditions imposed by the IMF)

Edit to add: Yes, Russias offer was exclusive, much like the EU's. Both sides imposed terms on their offers which benefited themselves. There are clearly people in the Ukraine that favored the Russian deal, and people that favored EU integration.

reply to post by Xcathdra

So when the west does it its bad.. When Russia does it its acceptable?

Yep. You know why? Because the west helped foster a coup to achieve their ends. The Ukraine had established deals with Russia, like it or not. Russia did not foment a coup to achieve their ends at the cost of human lives. The west did. I clearly pointed out that both powers are in it for profit, so you won't see me claiming either is altruistic. But one of them is willing to sacrifice human lives to further an agenda when there was already agreements in place, and people were living in relative peace. So while I consider both forces guilty of profiteering and power mongering, I see one side which is willing to put the security of the entire world at risk for said profit.

Xcathdra
No worries.. It happens and I have been on both sides of those situations. If my responses came across as condescending / arrogant its not my intent and I apologize.

I actually appreciate you asking questions for clarification. Its something I should do more often.

It's hard to hear a tone when on the internet, so nothing on your end. People sometimes think I am arguing with them, when in fact I am agreeing with their point. It's just the way it is inside the Wild West of cyberspace.

As for the Russian people and how they feel - I see your point. I am basing my opinion off the incidents that occurred specifically while Putin was in office (both of the positions he held) and the peoples reaction to those changes. Its one of the reasons I think Putin is so determined to gain control over the media. If he can hold onto that it will make it a lot easier to control the people.

I agree, they do that here on a lessor scale, but they do it without a doubt in most Nations to the herds.

How can people get upset about government action when they aren't allowed to know its occurring?

I think the Russian people have more access to worldwide media these days, but your point is well taken. Hopefully my friend, cooler heads will prevail concerning this unfortunate situation. ~$heopleNation

Kuroodo
Report: Russia Gives Ukraine Ultimatum To Remove Troops From Crimea

weaselzippers.us...

Can't confirm this yet but if it's true then well ..yep it's an invasion for sure.

Sigh. If this is true then this is a sticky situation, IMO.. On one hand I personally don't believe we (the U.S.) should get involved.. mainly because we can't afford another war, and we also don't need to be making more enemies with relations already going downhill with Russia. Not to mention the fact that this isn't even in our backyard.

On the other hand, NATO has an obligation to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine. However, now that Obama has in my opinion at least, given Putin a pass to do whatever he wants by making weak threats of economic sanctions (which I doubt Putin even cares about) or not participating in the G8 summit in Sochi in June (oooo scary) things might get out of control if Putin decides to get cocky. I can't even say I blame Obama in this case, and I don't say that often if ever. The U.S. simply can't lead this front. I think it's time the other NATO nations step up. If this was an internal Ukrainian civil war like it should be, then everyone should butt out, but it's not happening that way unless we are being completely lied to by all media including independent media.

I guess I don't get why other nations in the region aren't "getting tough" on this, why haven't they spoken out? Poland for example, Germany? France? What about the U.K.? At risk of making it seem like I"m saying the buck should be passed, that's exactly what needs to happen. One of these NATO nations should take a leadership role on this, and I really don't think it should be the U.S. leading it.

Kuroodo
Here is a full youtube video of the armed men

They are hauling a ton of stuff on their backs it seems. Not sure what's in them though.

Also, at 1:29, the guy walking to the right on the bottom looks to be holding a PKP Pecheneg machine gun. Then at around 2:00, another soldier sets up the PKP facing the door. Also, at 2:02, look at the other guy in the bottom left. It looks like his rifle has a suppressor attached. He shows up in other parts of the video to, and another suppressed rifle shows up later to.

Then, most of the other guys have some type of AK variant (the muzzle brake on a few looks like the type that would generally be on an AK-74...atleast from the AK 74 variants Ive seen over here in the US), and I also saw a few SMG's. Optics are on almost all of the AK rifles to. I believe there's possible laser/flashlight attachments on a few to. They have some pretty tricked out AK's, along with some pricey accessories installed. Im not sure if this helps point to who these guys actually are, but they sure have some pretty good gear.

Xcathdra

andy1972
...... will watch.....and do nothing.

A thought provoking statement.

Tell me, how well did that mindset work for Adolf Hitler?

Let me start with -
Hitler and the nazi party wouldn't have gotten to power if they hadn't been funded by American businesses (even after the war had started) where Prescott Bush was directly involved.
In 2006 Britain finally paid of it's WAR LOAN TO AMERICA , so the America, made a buck or three off England fighting the nazi's.
So, the mindest of WW2 was that of WW1..the bankers rubbing their hands togerther and big business getting bigger.
WAR IS A RACKET. WW1 and 2 were allowed to happen simply for profit.

So what you want is that Russias attempts to annex the Crimea will result in in war between Nato and Russia then.
Eastern Ukraine is in its majority sympathetic towards Russia, speaks Russian and has Russian nationality.
The regime change, be it by the hand of god or by the machiavellian plottings of agents provocateurs placed in the Ukraine by the U.S and it's allies, has given Eastern Ukraine the opportunity to vote itself free of the Ukraine and place itself under the Russian umberella.

If they go to the vote, and it's legal and the Eastern Ukrainians vote to be seperatist, it's their choice does'nt matter if Kiev likes it or not.

The annex, once again if its done legally, isn't the west's problem.
Hitler used the annex of the sudetenland and Austria as a jumping off point to attck Poland and then the rest of Europe.
Russia isn't bothered about invading Europe.

America hasn't got the balls to put feet on the ground in the Ukraine against Russia, America likes to send its spys to third world tinpot dictator run countries with oil, gas and minerals, destabilise the government therein and put in it's puppet regimes, who in turn, are more corrupt than the governments they have replaced.

The agreement to protect Ukraines sovereignty wont cover Eastern Ukraine as they are happy to break away.
Russia dont want to occupy the Ukraine. This isn't a repeat of the start of WW2.

Eastern Ukraine will vote, be a seperatist state under the protection of Russias umberella, and there it will end, that's called democracy...it's what America claims it gives to the above mentioned third world tinpot dictator run countries it invades to take control of it's natural resources.

And the west will watch....and do nothing..unless of course theres a quick dollar to be made.

reply to post by buni11687


Food for thought:
Could the extra weight in their packs be explosives? I mean they did go to the airport, what better way of handy-capping any relief effort then booby-trapping the airport.

Yeah these guys are either current military, or very high priced former military "security" for hire. Nice gear though.

One of the things that strikes me about the video that the BBC keep showing is that the "unidentified" troops patrolling the streets all have their magazines out of their rifles. Somebody doesn't want any passers by getting shot. It's quite surprising that no one mentions it on the news.
not that it detracts from the possible invasion of the Ukraine, it's seeming more like a semi peaceful annexation just like Germany did with Austria.

reply to post by andy1972


You missed the point I was trying to make.

The comment was in reference to Hitler telling Europe he had no desire for war...
He annexed the Sudentland while telling Europe he did not want war. He justified that action by making the argument that it had a large German population / was once part of Germany.
For every action he took, the response from Europe was appeasement.

This emboldened Hitler to make more and more aggressive moves, relying on the fact Europe has failed to raise concerns / stop him.

That resulted in WWII.

The comments people have been making in this thread is Russia could easily dominate the west. They could easily stop the US / NATO / EU militaries. That view of Russia was the same view Hitler / Germans had that lead up to WWII. That mentality is dangerous, for both sides of this. Europe has been the site of 2 world wars... It was the primary focus of the cold war.

Do you really think Europe is going to sit by and watch Putin restart the Soviet Union?

If anything it has shown that appeasement rather than military action does not work and only results in armed conflict. In this instance though I don't see the EU / US / NATO / UN attempting appeasement. I see them taking actions to prevent a resurgence. That view could easily be justified with Russia's actions towards Ukraine.

Every argument made in support of Russia's action has an equal argument for the opposite side of the coin.

Example -
* - Russia has a right to defend its "sphere aboard"
* - Russia's actions in the Crimea are ok because ethnic Russians live there.
* - Russia argues NATO expansion is a threat to their security.

* - NATO / EU / US has a right to defend its "sphere abroad"
* - NATO / EU / US actions in the Crimea is ok because there is a large population segment that are not Russian.
* - NATO / EU / US can argue the alliance is still needed based on Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

We can go one step further and argue the US / EU / NATO has a responsibility to be involved since they signed agreements with Ukraine to protect its territory.

Will Russia stop with the Crimea?
What if they opt to take the other half of Ukraine in order to reinstall the President who was lawfully removed by Ukraine?
What will happen to the former soviet republics when Russia decides they are a threat because they wont be in lock step with Russia?

Finally - can any response / comments from Russia be taken seriously when they outright lied during their news conferences at the UN about their involvement in Ukraine?

The above is not new as it occurred when Hitler was in power. I don't see how people cannot see that.

Finally Russia's actions violated the UN charter. Under the charter Ukraine has a right to remove Russian forces via force and any nation with treaty obligations can assist.

By taking these actions Russia just opened the door for the same mentality by the west towards Syria.. Iran.. etc.

reply to post by Xcathdra


The Sudetenland and Austria hadn't suffered a (popular ?) regime change (coup d'etat) the week before they were annexed by Germany.

Russian had nothing to gain by instegating the events of the past weeks in the Ukraine.

Russia had signed a new contract for renting its military bases, and had given the Ukraine a 30% discount on it gas bill.

However , a western controlled muppet government placed in power by the US and it's cronies could control the gas lines that pass through the Ukraine to the rest of Europe and pose a direct threat to Russian intrests and security.

Now the US, the IMF and whoever else will bail out the new Ukraine and payroll the government..

Maybe the Russians remember all to well what happened in WW2 and they know the fact that many within America and the UK secretly supported and funded the NSDAP to power.
These bastards were directly responsable for the devastation of Europe for 6 years, because they knew WHO and WHAT they were funding and continued to fund them even after the war had started.
Maybe what Russia sees happening in the Ukraine is the same people putting their muppet government in power on Russias door step.
Would you want them??...

SprocketUK
not that it detracts from the possible invasion of the Ukraine, it's seeming more like a semi peaceful annexation just like Germany did with Austria.

Anyone see the parallels?




Anschluss

1938

Following increasing violence and demands from Hitler that Austria agree to a union, Schuschnigg met with Hitler on 12 February at Berchtesgaden in an attempt to avoid the take-over of Austria.

Russia refuses to deal with the Ukrainian government, at first stating its an internal matter of Ukraine. Then they state they refuse to deal with the Ukrainian government because they don't recognize it as lawful (even though it is under Ukrainian law / constitution.

Hitler presented Schuschnigg with a set of demands which included appointing known Austrian Nazi sympathizers to positions of great power in the Austrian government. The key appointment was that of Seyss-Inquart who would take over as Minister of Public Security, with full and unlimited control of the police forces in Austria.

Russia wants the former President, who was lawfully removed, in place since he is a Russian stooge.

In return Hitler would publicly reaffirm the treaty of 11 July 1936 and reaffirm his support for Austria's national sovereignty. Schuschnigg accepted Hitler's "deal", returned to Vienna and made the changes to his government.[17]

Russia continually states its an internal issue of Ukraine and they have no interest in intervening.

Seyss-Inquart was a longtime Nazi who sought the union of all Germans in one state. Leopold argues he was a moderate who favoured an evolutionary approach to union. He opposed the violent tactics of the Austrian Nazis, collaborated with Catholic groups, and wanted to preserve a measure of Austrian identity within the Third Reich.[18]

Ukraine is a sovereign country, which includes the Crimea. Russia apparently feels the need to create a union of all Russians, regardless off what country they live in.

One week later, Hitler made a speech in which he stated, "The German Reich is no longer willing to tolerate the suppression of ten million Germans across its borders." This was clearly directed at Austria and Czechoslovakia.

Russia is not willing to tolerate ethic Russians / Crimea remaining as a sovereign part of Ukraine.

Schuschnigg announces a referendum[edit]

On 9 March 1938, in an effort to preserve Austria's independence, Schuschnigg scheduled a plebiscite on the issue of unification for 13 March. To secure a large majority in the referendum, Schuschnigg set the minimum voting age at 24, as he believed younger voters were now supporters of the German Nazi ideology. This was a risk, and the next day it became apparent that Hitler would not simply stand by while Austria declared its independence by public vote. Hitler declared that the referendum would be subject to major fraud and that Germany would not accept it. In addition, the German ministry of propaganda issued press reports that riots had broken out in Austria and that large parts of the Austrian population were calling for German troops to restore order. Schuschnigg immediately responded publicly that reports of riots were false.[19]

again - Russia is doing the same thing. As did the President who was booted from office in Ukraine.

Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian National Socialists or face an invasion. The ultimatum was set to expire at noon, but was extended by two hours. Without waiting for an answer, Hitler had already signed the order to send troops into Austria at one o'clock.[20]

Russia has issued an ultimatum to the Ukrainian government to vacate bases / positions in the Crimea, setting a time for compliance before they take action. When Russia was downplaying their troop movements / drills, and while saying its an internal issue of Ukraine, had in fact signed / given the order for what we are seeing right now.

It is said that after listening to Bruckner's Seventh Symphony, Hitler cried: "How can anyone say that Austria is not German! Is there anything more German than our old pure Austrianness?"

Crimea contains a large ethnic Russian population and Russia wants them.

German troops march into Austria[edit]
Cheering crowds greet the Nazis in Vienna.
On the morning of 12 March, the 8th Army of the German Wehrmacht crossed the border to Austria. The troops were greeted by cheering German-Austrians with Nazi salutes, Nazi flags, and flowers. Because of this, the Nazi annexing is also called the Blumenkrieg (war of flowers), but its official name was Unternehmen Otto.[23] For the Wehrmacht, the invasion was the first big test of its machinery. Although the invading forces were badly organized and coordination among the units was poor, it mattered little because no fighting took place.[24]

2 airports, military installations, government buildings etc etc.. No fighting occurred (yet)

Hitler had intended to Nazify Austria and make it a close ally to Germany, but now he decided to formally absorb the country as a German province. On 13 March Seyss-Inquart announced the revoking of Article 88 of the Treaty of Saint-Germain, which prohibited the unification of Austria and Germany, and approved the replacement of the Austrian states with Reichsgau.[25]

Russia attempted to make Ukraine a close ally. When that did not work out they moved into the Crimea because of the large ethnic Russian population who "wants" to be part of Russia and not Ukraine.

Hitler later commented: "Certain foreign newspapers have said that we fell on Austria with brutal methods. I can only say: even in death they cannot stop lying. I have in the course of my political struggle won much love from my people, but when I crossed the former frontier (into Austria) there met me such a stream of love as I have never experienced. Not as tyrants have we come, but as liberators."[28]

The very argument being made by people in this thread and abroad when it comes to the west and the media.

Moscow Declaration[edit]

The Moscow Declaration of 1943, signed by the U.S., the Soviet Union and the UK, included a "Declaration on Austria", which stated the following:


The governments of the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and the United States of America are agreed that Austria, the first free country to fall a victim to Hitlerite aggression, shall be liberated from German domination.

They regard the annexation imposed on Austria by Germany on 15 March 1938, as null and void. They consider themselves as in no way bound by any changes effected in Austria since that date. They declare that they wish to see re-established a free and independent Austria and thereby to open the way for the Austrian people themselves, as well as those neighbouring States which will be faced with similar problems, to find that political and economic security which is the only basis for lasting peace.

Austria is reminded, however, that she has a responsibility, which she cannot evade, for participation in the war at the side of Hitlerite Germany, and that in the final settlement account will inevitably be taken of her own contribution to her liberation.[35][36]

I can keep going if you want...

How quickly Russia forgets history.....
How quickly others ignore history.....

andy1972
The Sudetenland and Austria hadn't suffered a (popular ?) regime change (coup d'etat) the week before they were annexed by Germany.

They did.. see my above post.

andy1972
Russian had nothing to gain by instegating the events of the past weeks in the Ukraine.

Sure they did.. They got the Crimea by invasion.

andy1972
Russia had signed a new contract for renting its military bases, and had given the Ukraine a 30% discount on it gas bill.

And nothing in that agreement allows Russia to invade Ukraine and seize the Crimea while ignoring the lawful Ukrainian government / Ukrainian territorial sovereignty.

andy1972
However , a western controlled muppet government placed in power by the US and it's cronies could control the gas lines that pass through the Ukraine to the rest of Europe and pose a direct threat to Russian intrests and security.

And since the EU gets gas from Ukraine the same argument applies in reverse.

andy1972
Now the US, the IMF and whoever else will bail out the new Ukraine and payroll the government..

You forgot to add Russia to the IMF list since they are a member of the IMF. The offer made was to assist in funds for 2 years.

andy1972
Maybe the Russians remember all to well what happened in WW2 and they know the fact that many within America and the UK secretly supported and funded the NSDAP to power.
These bastards were directly responsable for the devastation of Europe for 6 years, because they knew WHO and WHAT they were funding and continued to fund them even after the war had started.
Maybe what Russia sees happening in the Ukraine is the same people putting their muppet government in power on Russias door step.
Would you want them??...

I think Russia, in addition to people in this thread, are ignoring history and what led to WWII. in this case Russia is borrowing the Nazi playbook.

As we can see, it worked for a while however in the end....
The Soviet Union collapsed in the end....


Also I asked a question and no one bothered to attempt to answer it.

If Russia is justified in their actions towards Ukraine, then shouldn't Chechnya / Dagestan be given independence from Russia?

When all is said and done, there's nothing the west can do that will change Russian policy.
Sure, we can stop buying their gas for a while. That's gonna hurt us more than them.
Militarily there's nothing at all to be done. The Red army might not be the steamroller it once was, but there's no way of winning a war against a nuclear power like that.