Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

reply to post by BlueMule


Yes.. if it costs me my life, I'm going to fix this..
and I'm just one person.. I know others who feel
exactly the same as I do. I wouldn't be surprised
if there weren't large numbers of mystical types
and researchers who don't feel this way.

One thing the field often does, is to corrupt
people who feel this way, and have them write
books and start cults. Things often rapidly
go downhill from there..

But information is key.. we need to get the information
out there in a consensus format.. without letting the
field corrupt the process.

For that to work, we need to stop this adversarial
way of communicating with ourselves and the field
or we have no chance.

Success in this endeavor is more about psychology
and learning to love than scientific research in
my opinion.. we can collect all the data in the
world.. we can build Frankenstein machines all
day.. but if the field is truly alive and sentient..
perhaps more so than 'we' are.. I can tell you
this.. the field won't 'put out' if we don't court
him/her/it.

I've made this same reference about so-called
'kundalini' and so-called 'enlightenment' ..
people try to force the sentient aspects of
the universe to obey their will.. poke it
with probes and magic spells.. well..
it don't work that way....

I'm convinced we are going about this totally
wrong..

Humans hate to be poked, prodded and controlled..
but humans treat everything else in reality this way..
animals.. nature.. our fellow humans.. and our concepts
of the 'other' in general.

In my opinion this is the key realization.. without which
we are totally wasting our time even discussing this
subject. But that's just my opinion.

I think the field is rather heart-broken..

Oh.. you want me to dress up like a French maid..
then you'll LOVE ME and not just lust after me..
ok.. I'll do that... *sigh*

KPB

Um... ok. Not sure what all that is about.

Does anyone have suggestions for the possible parameters of the JV control system, other than scientific and spiritual progress?

DrunkYogi
What if the Trickster is mother Earth herself ? Trying to keep us and teach us!

If Mother earth was the trickster, I think she'd have spent the past 200 or so yrs. trying to 'trick' us into taking better care of her….

It seems to me that any great idea whether scientific or psycho-social generally gets prostituted and weaponized. Or tinkered with by those who care not much for the test subject but only results.

Being that we are a "connected" world and we've seen that the control system theory had some basis in information network theory, do you think forums like this escape the attention of anyone interested in "tinkering"?

Because I think we've established, and that it's pretty obvious, that our consciousness--that is people--are the entree to the "feedback loop" that Jacques refers too.

If, and that might be a big IF, Jacques ideas ever even took root. Maybe they didn't. But if they did, I betcha somewhere along the way it became less about UFOs and more about plugging the power of mythology into the other social engineering theories.

We're in a box here, for example, on this very forum. Even in many senses a "closed loop". lakespirit (he's a real up & comer here, eh?!) gave not only an awesome example with explanatory power using Eidolon's model, but detailed how easy it would be to collate, track, compare, and extrapolate information in a forum environment. And even use that information to manipulate. It would seem a no-brainer for any scientist/sociologists, eh?

As many have pointed out here--basically--that Vallee's ideas might get us any closer to the truth about UFOs probably failed miserably. "They" ain't falling for no sociological shell game no matter how brilliant the human "magician." Maybe that's not even what the theory was exactly about in the first place. Regardless, has a more "practical" use been made? More to do with the sociological rather than the ufological?

Most probably some of those connected with this--especially Jacques--are indeed trying to jumpstart what they see as human potentials yet undeveloped. Jacques tells us so without coming right out and saying it. That's why he HAS to "hesitate" to be more clear:

““Back in 1961 I published a science-fiction novel in which I imagined luminous spheres going through walls. Now Geller and Vaughan are seeing such spheres. The following year I published another novel in which the world became twisted when a young scientist watched his spoon bending in front of his eyes, now Uri is doing the same thing in your lab…

….Gordon Creighton thinks that witnesses are out of their bodies at the time of the event, hence the similarity with occult traditions. I told him that Passport to Magonia was being misunderstood by Americans, who seem unable to grasp the mythic power of the phenomenon, beyond its physical reality. ““People misunderstand the word myth””, he said. ““They think of a myth as something that isn't true. They can't understand that, on to contrary, a myth is that which is truer than truth.”…

But he also warns us of the "seedier" side and those scientists--nay Alchemists--who would prostitute these same "spells" to subjugate. One look at his experiences with the intelligence cadre and his feelings about them are in all likelihood some very pertinent clues as to some of what we are facing. Maybe his ideas about that aspect are even more important to us as a society than it's hoped for use to understand the phenomenon better.

It's THOSE tinkerers that we must recognize and keep our eyes on. We keep following the maze constructed for us, it seems, without ever thinking to look up at the human scientists who constructed it and are watching us with their cold and calculating yellowed-eyes. Welcome to the maze. Don't forget your password.

reply to post by The GUT


Beautiful.

KPB

reply to post by lostgirl


Some folks see 'mother earth' in a less physical
way. Some folks even see 'mother earth' like
an egg, and it's ok to destroy the egg for the
sake of the chick inside.. that perhaps
'mother earth' is even willing to sacrifice her
body for her 'chick'.

reply to post by Autograf


That was for about 1/2 of the participants of this thread
who aren't as open about their views but are interested
to hear from someone who is 'all in'.

I'm sorry it wasn't for the other 1/2.

Have you ever seen the sci fi show "Farscape"?

What if the control interface is attempting to
force obediance from a sentient process?

Like a Leviathan is the metaphor.

So spritual progresss, technological progress and enslavement
of a sentient aspect of nature I'd say.

This is all about power.. I think it's fair to say.. everyone is
after power.. whether it be spiritual, technological or societal
or all of the above.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Thanks for your insight!

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


So you're proposing a power trip is one of the parameters being maintained?

This doesn't seem compatible with the other proposed parameters, but I'm willing to consider it.

There something we all call synchronicity that comes into play. In reference to GUTs point.

I could tell you stories about that that would blow folks away, but it’s something we all have experienced: YOUR THINKING ABOUT A PERSON YOU HAVENT SEEN IT 20 YEARS AND YOU WALK IN A ROOM AND THERE THEY ARE.

Vallee may just have tasted it in his references to Uri Geller.

That’s a hidden control system.


Any control system, from the human perspective, is mostly based on the desire to maintain something, as it is and be resistant to change. Sometimes it can be based on scientific research or the control system we have altruistically erected to aid the survival of animals.

Of course there is a variable in this regard. The Alien civilization may be different than ours…

They may have either evolved out of doing destruction to themselves as we do, or they may never have fallen to our low level of self destructive activity.

If that be the case then their control system is not easily understood.

They don’t want to change us just understand us FIRST AND THEN SEE IF THEY CAN CHANGE HUMAN NATURE.
Or
They may have a mandate to intervene in our control system. I will venture to guess they would do it from a dominating perspective, in other words there won’t be any silly wars like those Hollywood movies we have all seen…think Independence day.

Our control system is usually a political system and therefore resistant to change so it is abusive and dangerous.

Vallee s problem, like anyone trying to figure out something they have no knowledge of, is that he doesn’t know this alien groups nature: what drives them.

reply to post by Autograf


Let others comment on that then..

The desire to have power over 'the other' is the very essence
of the so-called 'left hand path' and also the very essence of
religion and government, at least if you are cynical.

Power for the sake of power alone.

I hope the following makes sense, I just about broke my brain trying to keep it in mind while trying to catch up to the 'end' of the posts..


My practical side showed up and weighs in with:

I think it is quite important that we go back to basics here with Vallee, et al…I mean (and have mentioned before) NOTHING 'new' has come out of Valle, NIDS/Bigelow's boys, or the government 'faction' (so far as I can find) for over 2 decades…

What does that 'tell' us? I don't think they just suddenly got bored with the subject. So why? And really, when you look at it, the 'stoppage' was relatively abrupt. Again, why?

What niggles at my mind is: Something happened. Something scared Vallee off. Was it the government? Or were they scared off by something too?

One area of focus should be that implication (Moore's?) that Vallee was involved in the Bennewitz case (that was a shocker to me and should be looked into - could provide important clues)..

Another that nudged my noggin was: I remember Vallee mentioning somewhere that it took a while for Hynek to come on board with the 'Control System' type theory of ufos. Now, I wonder, did he really 'come on board' or was he just trying to keep Vallee (who was rapidly growing disillusioned by the CIA) from bailing?

My 'take on "Messengers of Deception" (admittedly I read it so fast, I could have missed a lot) is that it wasn't as much about warning about 'cults' as it was warning about the government.
After all, when you look at the 'case histories' most of the cults (aside from Scientology - and I think that is an 'animal' in and of itself, which is why Valle didn't really bring it up in the book) sprang up around various gubmint 'introduced' memes...

Kit Greene I think we can lump in with all the other dis-info group, though he may have had (by his estimation) high minded reasons for his involvement.


So, to get practical: maybe we divvy up some research..

Anyone want to volunteer to go over "Messengers of Deception" with a fine tooth comb? (I will read it again, but my brain fog is pretty bad most of my days lately, so not sure whether I will catch all pertinent 'points').

Someone want to post a chronological list of Vallee's books, and maybe some of us can choose one to concentrate on?

Another task could be combing through and organizing info to be gleaned from as many Vallee interviews to be found (if someone searched them all out and linked them here on a timeline, they could be divvied up, as well)

If anyone has any other research suggestions or related areas of concentration please add them…

Anyone who is good at searching the really 'deep' internet - some pertinent areas of research are:

What was ever accomplished by NIDS? (aside from Skinwalker ranch stuff, which I think is a dead end, because that is the likeliest reason that Bigelow sold the thing)

Has Bigelow Aerospace (is that the right company name?) been looking into anything paranormal at all? I couldn't find anything but nuts and bolts space travel research..


I'm suggesting all of this, because I don't think the thread can get any further with speculation into 'The Control System (and it's various accompanying theories), until there is more 'hard' info both to speculate with and to rule out non-pertinent data…

All suggestions on my suggestions welcome and probably necessary...


I've definitely missed things here, but too 'foggy' and don't have time to think what they are and get them down - anyone any good at 'psychically' reading between (and over and around) the lines?

Just a few comments then i'll be actually *working* for a living
instead of camping this thread.

First, just so that people who aren't metaphysical students
don't think i'm a perv ---

It's a very common thought, that "exchanging energy with the other"
is a definition for sex. And that is also the exact same defnition
for spirituality.

Thnk not just the obvious Tantra.. but Shiva/Shakti & large hunks of
hinduism and shamanism and many man systems.. I've love to hear
Blue orate on this topic in another new post.. think
mystic christianity "bride of christ".

I'll go so far as to say, that ALL genuine mystics come across this
in their path.. sex and spirituality are joined at the hip.

So really.. when talking about 'the other' and that is the very
definition of the Trickster.. when seen clearly in my opinion..
this becomes a matter of sex as well... but for the sake of the niceties..
we can keep talking about it in part, as 'spirituality'.

Now another thing I'd like to mention.. it seems most folks are hung up
on a mental image of 'equilibrium'. That there is a purposeful balancing
act going on..

Well that's not my view. Not in any way. I 100% disagree with that.

I say the field goes back and forth in fits and bursts.. yes it responds to
us.. and we respond to it.. but there is NO guardian function.. no
'progress' function that I can see..

now since evolution deals with adapting to the environment and the field
is part of our environment.. and we are part of 'it's' environment.. we
are having an evolutionary effect on each other yes.. but not like
you might think.

Once you free your mind from the need to see a balance .. you are free to
research this from different angles..

I've not heard the word evolution in this thread i don't think.. but that's
what we are studying here in my opinion.

Maybe we'll never know what 'it wants'. Maybe that's not even the point..
maybe we just need to learn how to evolve ... and then 'it' may watch
us evolve and do the same..

So even if there is no actual 'figuring this out'.. even if there is no
actual and direct communication..

it can still be win win.

(I think mystics could communicate directly to the field and have it respond
positively.. that really any of us could learn to do that.. but that's another
topic for another thread.. I just wanted to challenge the equilibrium assumption).

Off to work.

KPB

BlueMule
So the first step in bringing the trickster inside is to defeat this organized intent to suppress the truth. Parapsychology must be brought inside the gates of science and people must be made to realize that their thoughts actually matter so they can take responsibility for them.

Parapsychology (note: most researchers in the field hate that term. Many consider psychology itself to be something of a failure as a science. For awhile one primary lab called it "anomalous cognition." Nobody knew what that meant except them apparently lol.) is already solidly in the realm of science. In fact RV proper (not to be confused with the BS other people want to call that) has one of the tightest science protocols around.

It doesn't matter. If it's waterproof, people just use something old (or a lie or something which is both). If it's bulletproof people just ignore it. I recall some research paper once that was done by a graduate student, he did a study where he went and interviewed scientists in a variety of fields about their views on parapsychology science. All of them had an opinion. Nearly all of those were negative. All of them openly said that their opinion was not personal but "as a scientist." And then it turned out that essentially none of them had the slightest familiarity with psi research. Not a bit of it. So as Joe, they watched something on TV or the movies, came to a decision, and then as Dr. Whatever, opined their opinion about the science of psi research based on their illuminative education of "the movies."

I used to think that the general public watching TV tended to be dim (but well intentioned usually), and being a science buff I had more respect for scientists and published research. My opinion on the former was gradually eroded by my exposure to RV, and my efforts the last five years to do truly enormous amounts of off-work-time reading of nutrition and biological research and related topics has utterly annihilated my respect for the latter. Now I tend to think that our entire culture is just not ready for it. Maybe in 50 years. Maybe in 100. If enough of us are still around. I don't think there is anything we are likely to accomplish in today's world that is more than a few individuals worth.

Once people get that through their thick skulls, the second step is to provide people with ways to reach their psychic potential. Awakened consciousness is the only way to bring the trickster inside. Not to mention, its the only way to address the ticking time-bombs that threaten the planet.

I agree completely. Unfortunately it's not nearly as easy as it sounds. Psychic functioning has an effect most people don't realize: it actually invalidates our most fundamental belief systems about reality. That means when you first walk into it, or if you're only a dabbler (I mean you as in 'anyone' not you personally), it's all fun and sunny. Get serious enough with it to matter, and the psychology goes to enormous lengths to protect you, your ego, your sense of identity, your sense of time, your sense of space, your sense of not being responsible for things which if you truly believe in psi you'd have to accept that on some level you knew and chose to allow/accept/not-prevent, and more. It's overwhelming.

For the number of people I've known who have been 'seriously' introduced to psychic functioning (thousands over the last 19 years), very very very few are actually able to stay with it. Cognitive dissonance is overwhelming. Mind you, when I say stay with it, I mean stay with doing it properly in a way that is likely to be worthwhile as data, for more than the fun of their personal experience. The psychology throws every possible alternative and block in the way it can to get out of the specific [ target / double-blind or solo-blind to the data-focus (preferably the whole target and its nature, but at least to the data focus) / hard feedback loop] that forces change in the psychology. Most people after a while decide that they 'need' to let go of one or more of those 3 critical protocol elements. Those three things are required to call anything RV legitimately. So after that they're just 'viewing' (not Remote Viewing) as slang. Which is fine, and fun. And some targets can ONLY be done as psi not RV because they lack feedback on the elements in question.

Even when performing it, there's a lot of issues that make it obvious how our culture excludes this, like that nearly all the language we must use for it ranges from not truly applicable to completely wrong, but we haven't got better words, because we haven't got a better "shared experience" for the culture to develop a language.

It wouldn't be psychic training that could get through, as a result of all the above.

However if we started with children and actually modified our language to include such concepts, it would probably work. I think Robert Heinlein saw this eons ago and that's why in Stranger in a Strange Land, Michael Valentine first taught them another language. Their mind simply had to have a different way of wrapping around things.

People need to see that science accepts psychic functioning,

Science is a process. The scientific process has been well and repeatedly validated for psychic functioning. Scientists are another story. It is human culture and scientism and ignorance which does not accept psychic functioning. Your job in fixing those is considerably more complicated and long-term alas!

and that science can help people to develop their psi safely.

1. Safe from what? The only measurable danger in psychic functioning is psychological, and that is individual. Nothing else can protect you from yourself. Every person who actually has the discipline, fortitude and questionable judgement (ha) to wade into something that directly assaults their fundamental belief systems about reality is destabilized by it. Everyone. The variable is how well the individuals are able to adapt (constantly, it's a never ending process) to that turbulence, well and how obnoxious they are in the meantime.

2. There is no measurable development of psi itself, but rather, there is the development of communication elements and the reduction of psychological interference elements.

3. These are human elements and an art and would not be addressed by science. What science can do, and what science *does* in the whole existence of legitimate remote viewing protocols, is "exclude" every known avenue for screwing it up that anybody has been able to figure out since psi research began over a century ago. Many of those ways are very subtle, or secondary. In other words, to use the signal/noise model (although I dislike that, as it is also used a bit differently in this field to represent some outdated/obsolete/wrong mental models about psi from the 70s), you could say that if there is any way to amp the signal, it would be individual, personal, possibly metaphysical; science is dedicated to the suppression / exclusion of known sources of noise. Note: this can also include elements that actually help it look like it is more successful, but for reasons which are not actually psi.

In order for that to happen, organized pseudo-skepticism, such as that represented by James Randi, needs to be defeated.

He's not a scientist, he's a fraud, and his mentality is the reason some founders (like Mario Truzzi) left PSICOP in disgust. Actually every time I read a so-called debunking page I am reminded that many of these people while seemingly intelligent in some ways, clearly have such emotional bias/issues that it makes them into blithering idiots when it comes to evaluative critical thinking. Most debunking stuff (this usually includes anything in wiki which is very mainstream in that regard) is actually so filled with *intentionally* false stuff that one realizes quickly there's no point to even wasting your time; it isn't a lack of information they've got.

The center of organized pseudo-skepticism is the JREF Million Dollar Challenge. When its defeated, the world will take notice.

Wow you bought right into that. It is a completely unscientific setup designed solely to allow Randi to control the parameters on the fly with a never-ending 'out' -- he admitted that to fellow CSICOP founders who certainly mentioned it when they left the org. Randi is wholly unqualified as a scientist let alone as a scientist with any real expertise in psi research. There are other mentalists who function as skeptics and are a) profoundly more talented than he ever was and b) have contributed greatly to the tightening of protocol in psi research over the years.

Randi is the venus weather balloon swamp gas of psi science.

The MDC is a trickster prank.

What is MDC?

It can be defeated, but imo only by a large group of experienced long-term meditation experts who are each in the same league as Sean Harribance or Ingo Swann, who are synched enough to act in psychic unison, and who are determined to defeat the lies of organized pseudo-skepticism.

Plenty of occult orders have been working toward that for eons...

reply to post by lostgirl

LOTS of excellent points and suggestions there imo, lostgirl.

I was away from home for about two weeks and about 3/4 of the way through my reread of MoD and misplaced it. I haven't--embarassingly--totally unpacked yet, but I'll try and find it today, start over and this time take notes.

lakespirit has obviously been going over FS II with a sharp mind. FS II NEEDS more sharp minds. It's obviously full of hints and clues. Jacques even said so himself somewhere.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Sounds like tug-of-war to me

Maybe it's like isometric exercise, where each side 'pulls' against the other in order to build muscle and grow stronger...

Re: Unpacking
You think you're bad? Last June we took a trip, I came home, spent several days slowly unpacking, at the halfway mark I shoved the suitcase in the corner (didn't forget about it mind you, just consciously ignored it) - six months later (!) voila, I am half-way 'packed' for our Christmas trip !

One thing I keep coming back to (and I know, harping on), everything we've discussed in this thread is based on decades old info (even Red Cairo's amazing (experiential) & IMO pertinent 'data' is from about that long ago (RC, have you ever speculated why those 'episodes' ended?) - I just don't think we can come up with any 'real' answers (or even suppositions) until we:

A. Get a grip on all the 'old' info

B. Get some new (or at least recent) info

C. Or - figure out "why" there's no new info (My gut is nagging and nagging me about this)

This is really IMO the only way we can make any true progress with the essential question of - what's it all about? (in the British sense of "about" i.e., What's it doing, What's its purpose and why?)

The GUT
Being that we are a "connected" world and we've seen that the control system theory had some basis in information network theory, do you think forums like this escape the attention of anyone interested in "tinkering"?

It occurred to me as well, if I understand your meaning, that we could be easily demotivated from trying to expose or disrupt the control system because whatever we do or say, and wherever we say it, the control system could monitor that response and adjust its programming to compensate.

Not to over-do my Damascene conversion on Vallee's thesis, but there does seem to be an assumption that the control system would be perfectly implemented by entities operating without any limits, and operating on the basis that any one individual human's ideas, or one particular group's ideas, were of unique importance.

However, taking perhaps the most probable of all theories of ufology, if we are being accosted by a machine intelligence then we are effectively dealing with a gestalt entity. This intelligence may well have a concept of individuality, performing some functions more optimally in less holistic ways, but ultimately may not relate so well to continuous individualized experience. In summary, this intelligence may be more interested in the human gestalt, like our cultural beliefs, norms and values.

They (or it) could also be more limited in terms of monitoring, maybe limited to using cameras and microphones, listening to our conversations and watching our internet traffic, and their processing power would be extreme but nonetheless limited, which means they would have to make compromises in how they process and comprehend all that real-time data.

This proposed lack of mysticism could elucidate a monumental irony. Assuming that the control system has operated for millennia, we could attribute the miraculous formation of religions, shamanism, and other forms of mysticism, to manifestations of the control system; the burning bush, the resurrection of Christ, the visions of the Prophet, faeries and djinn, aliens and UFOs, whatever you will, are the points of manipulation which constitute the execution of the control system.

So having been guided by the control system away from the rationality of great pre-diluvian thinkers like Democritus, and towards religion, mysticism and sophistry, we now attribute mystical powers to the control system itself.

And, if I understand Vallee correctly, by explaining the control system to be manifestations of the Jungian collective unconscious, the intelligence behind the control system becomes rationalized and dematerialized and no longer exists outside of human imagination, which may provoke a reaction from the control system like bigger and better UFO cases, executed by the control system in order to guide us back towards mysticism.

reply to post by RedCairo

RedCairo, I really, really want to ask you a lot of questions generated by this post, but not relevant to the thread…Would you mind if I sent you a U2U (why do they call them that, I wonder?)

wemadetheworld
And, if I understand Vallee correctly, by explaining the control system to be manifestations of the Jungian collective unconscious, the intelligence behind the control system becomes rationalized and dematerialized and no longer exists outside of human imagination, which may provoke a reaction from the control system like bigger and better UFO cases, executed by the control system in order to guide us back towards mysticism.

This is a really great point - although, I don't know that there is any evidence supporting it…
I mean, I would bet that the average percentage of 'believers' to non-believers (in UFOs/aliens, supernatural, etc.) has remained about the same in the last 30 - 40 yrs. (since the mid 70's give or take).