Why is "Holocaust revisionism" a crime

Happy1
reply to post by On the level

 

Denying the holocaust in europe would be like denying black slavery in america - people should learn from their horrifying, non-humane history.

Europe does not want a return to nazism.

A little late for that. When laws are enacted to prevent people from saying what they believe is true, then it just goes to show that while the Nazis may have been defeated in WWII, their ideals live on.

reply to post by smurfy


I dont think anyone is denying the reality that it happened. But if the facts are skewed or the numbers are off...what is wrong with asking why?

Could it be that behind the death and pain, there was a much deeper conspiracy that some people would rather not see drug to the surface?

Would you care to point the rest of us to the real time film you saw of the executions? Because I think you are the first person to make such a ridiculous claim, we would all love to see this. The question in this tread is not about denial, no one who is arguing that the facts have been sensationalised is denying it happening. So please thread derailers and people who have not taken the time educate themselves on both sides of the argument save your denial comments. There are no deniers here.

smurfy
This is a fecking ridiculous thread, there is an opening post by the OP, with absolutely nothing in that post to qualify what he/she says, one way or another. It happened, there was an agenda. If, and it is a big if, figures were massaged it matters not a feck because we have all seen the mass executions on film, we have all seen the emaciated bodies on flim, we have all seen the emaciated people being shot and killed and falling into pits not quite filled with the same kind of emaciated bodies who were soon to be added to the toll, that is not fecking Hollywood.

luciddream
When things becomes a "taboo" to talk, it is when you need to look at it more keenly.

My sentiments exactly. And this doesn't just adhere to the Holocaust, but a plethora of subjects. I'd like to say ATS denies ignorance when it comes to taboo subjects, however that would be a lie. I find ATS to embrace ignorance when it comes to taboo, or politically incorrect subjects.

When you can no longer discuss a subject because it has become too taboo to discuss, that's exactly when people should be discussing it.

reply to post by Auricom


I actually think ATS allows great discussions to be had on taboo topics, but it is us, the membership, that tends to cross certain lines to an extreme that it takes away from the productive debate.

Let's also remember that we tend to bash each other and break T&C's and it becomes more logical to shut the thread down, rather than keep monitoring it.

Wewillallbefree
There are no deniers here.

Correction: There aren't any people here who are stupid enough to risk prosecution by denying it.

edit on 16-10-2013 by Scorchio because: (no reason given)

The laws regarding these events were put in place to try and prevent stupid people with sympathetic tendencies to the Nazi way of thinking from spreading vile propaganda suggesting that the mechanised slaughter of a particular group of people solely because of their ethic/religious background was somehow either justified or necessary, in order to prevent it happening again.

I'm suprised the question needs to be asked so "innocently"...but then people who ask it usually have agenda's that are far from innocent.

Revisionists and deniers like to try and bend this subject to suit their argument, saying that the laws prevent their "free speech" as a backdoor to try and spread their particular brand of propaganda. There are several other methods, including disputing the math, claims about the unfeasibility of the actions and "ensuring historical accuracy" etc but the key fact remains that they never dispute any other part of WW2 history, or dispute the numbers of other parties killed during these events. They only focus on the jewish element which - to me - says everything.

Playing with figures doesn't detract from the act of what happened. Even if it was "only" one million people (think about that, only one million....) killed by such methods for such reasons, its still genocide, carried out in "civilised" European country. Its still a vile and despicable act, and it still needs to be remembered so that such things do not happen again.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


I'm not talking about how ATS runs things. As an owner of a couple of forums, I realize the need for rules. My problem is with the membership. People on ATS claim to be so "enlightened" to the "reality" of things. Yet, there's certain realities they turn a blind eye to. (Hence, embracing ignorance.)

ATS as a website is doing a good job. I just find that a plethora of members here like to stick their head deep, deep in the sand on a lot of subjects.

The question is why is this the only historical event in history where questioning the central narrative is illegal ?

“ To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

—Voltaire

# 70

Ok as someone who's family would have been sent to the camps you may be surprised I agree with you.

Fact is the Holocaust happend.


But there are so many missing records and inconsistantsis the facts and figures I think do need to be discussed.

It was certainly bad. Infact the worse thing of the 20th Century.

But I do think some things need a harder look.

So the holocaust is the one historical event where laws are necessary ? A lot of racially motivated genocides/crimes against humanity have taken place over the history and this is the one that gets pinned to the do not challenge the facts board? I assure you, I have no sympathy for the Nazi's, what I do have though is questions, as do many historians.

And I assure you, I have no agenda. I don't belong to any groups of a particular political ideology, nor do I have any religion in which I can be labelled. I'm a free thinker, and oppose misinformation, and tyranical control in all its forms. One only need look up from his desk once in a while to see that there is a considerable amount of control in all facets of life, especially government in Jewish hands. Leave all the emotional feedback out of this, and look at the facts, and the scientific analysis that has been done by brave researchers.

neformore
The laws regarding these events were put in place to try and prevent stupid people with sympathetic tendencies to the Nazi way of thinking from spreading vile propaganda suggesting that the mechanised slaughter of a particular group of people solely because of their ethic/religious background was somehow either justified or necessary, in order to prevent it happening again.

I'm suprised the question needs to be asked so "innocently"...but then people who ask it usually have agenda's that are far from innocent.

Revisionists and deniers like to try and bend this subject to suit their argument, saying that the laws prevent their "free speech" as a backdoor to try and spread their particular brand of propaganda. There are several other methods, including disputing the math, claims about the unfeasibility of the actions and "ensuring historical accuracy" etc but the key fact remains that they never dispute any other part of WW2 history, or dispute the numbers of other parties killed during these events. They only focus on the jewish element which - to me - says everything.

Playing with figures doesn't detract from the act of what happened. Even if it was "only" one million people (think about that, only one million....) killed by such methods for such reasons, its still genocide, carried out in "civilised" European country. Its still a vile and despicable act, and it still needs to be remembered so that such things do not happen again.

reply to post by NowanKenubi

Youre referring to Ernst Zündel.

The OP is correct, the truth fears no investigation.


I think we can be relatively certain that millions of people died in WW2, not the least of which were the Russians numbering around 20 million? Total deaths, military and non-military, are estimated to be between 60 and 85 million people.

Could 6 million Jews have been killed? With numbers so high, it sure seems plausible. We may never know specifically how many Jews were killed but what we do know is that the Jewish Holocaust is used to push agendas: the creation of izrael, the idea of antisemitism which is used to silence criticism of izrael and or zionists etc.

sheepslayer247
Actually, if I am not mistaken the Romans were the first to use "concentration" camps or prison camps.

edit on 16-10-2013 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

. Yeh. Well I'll gladly give you that because the Romans made the NAZIS look angelic. They were truly evil bastards!

intrepid
The 1st is an American invention.

? Free speech is predates the US. The English Bill of Rights, for one.

Holocaust denial is only an offence in some of those countries that were bled by the Nazi's in their final solution. It is important enough to keep the facts alive, rather than wash it all out with people who could not spell "factual" and "based on evidence" and such like.

People quibble about the numbers and even point to (usually discredited) sources which make it all sound like Hitler was misunderstood and actually quite liked Jews, Poles, homosexuals, the disabled, gypsies and others who did not fit. It was not six million Jews, not possible. etc... These people often think the Protocols of the Elders are factual and the Jews did it to themselves. Work that one out!

I am all one for free speech, but there are exceptions.

Regards

WOW! This is awesome.

TheWhiteKnight

The question is why is this the only historical event in history where questioning the central narrative is illegal ?

“ To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

—Voltaire

# 70

pikestaff
reply to post by Merinda

 

The gas was Prussic acid gas, not CO2, this gas came from blue crystals, used to poison rats, sold under the trade name of Zyklon B, when the crystal were poured into the distribution system, and water added, the heavy fumes drifted down into the 'shower room' , having just typed this, I really wish I did not know so much terrible stuff.

Both Wrong.

Actually it was Zyklon B and CO carbon monoxide.

What you got depended on the camp. CO was more common as it was cheaper. They would connect the gas chamber to a tank engine. Treblinka and Sobidor come to mind with the CO.

AGAIN WE ARE NOT DEBATING DENIAL!!

paraphi

intrepid
The 1st is an American invention.

? Free speech is predates the US. The English Bill of Rights, for one.

Holocaust denial is only an offence in some of those countries that were bled by the Nazi's in their final solution. It is important enough to keep the facts alive, rather than wash it all out with people who could not spell "factual" and "based on evidence" and such like.

People quibble about the numbers and even point to (usually discredited) sources which make it all sound like Hitler was misunderstood and actually quite liked Jews, Poles, homosexuals, the disabled, gypsies and others who did not fit. It was not six million Jews, not possible. etc... These people often think the Protocols of the Elders are factual and the Jews did it to themselves. Work that one out!

I am all one for free speech, but there are exceptions.

Regards

I also think the Jews need to be put aside. As I think alot more died in the camps than has been reported due being part of other groups and these people should be brought to the foreground.

Wewillallbefree
So the holocaust is the one historical event where laws are necessary ? A lot of racially motivated genocides/crimes against humanity have taken place over the history and this is the one that gets pinned to the do not challenge the facts board? I assure you, I have no sympathy for the Nazi's, what I do have though is questions, as do many historians.

Another favourite tactic is to try and single this out as exclusive and out of context in this manner. What other countries and area's choose to adopt as law where they are is their business. The sheer scale and destruction wrought by WW2 in Europe caused by the actions of a facistisc ideaology left many deep scars and caused the division of a continent for nearly three generations. Of course the lawmakers following on from that are going to try and prevent such things happening again. To suggest that they do otherwise is ludicrous and goes against rational human nature.

I guess you'll try and suggest that this is pinned as an exclusive genocide. Its not. There have been many others across history, but none of them happened in Germany in Europe in the middle of the single biggest conflict the world has ever seen, and that means that this one draws more attention than others.

As for this

Leave all the emotional feedback out of this, and look at the facts, and the scientific analysis that has been done by brave researchers.

I've done more holocaust research than an awful lot of people so what's your point?

An observation here - this....

And I assure you, I have no agenda.

and this

One only need look up from his desk once in a while to see that there is a considerable amount of control in all facets of life, especially government in Jewish hands.

Doesn't quite tally.

Please... draw me up a list of all significant events in WW2 in the historical record that you don't agree with that don't involve jewish people, and lets debate those shall we?

I agree 100%, in my eyes the marginalization of those who suffered at the hands of the Nazi's was a Zionist manipulation of the the event to gain Israel moral teflon for what was about to come.

crazyewok
I also think the Jews need to be put aside. As I think alot more died in the camps than has been reported due being part of other groups and these people should be brought to the foreground.