Jesus Christ keeps us saved forever

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Ok so you are a SADventist then.

Listen Jmdewey you can not have personal piety until you first know that you are right with God and have union with the Spirit. It is only from this well-spring that any correct behaviour can come. You must first know the Spirit to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

If you are trying to do it in reverse you have already failed.

To focus in on the part, "You must first know the Spirit to produce the fruit of the Spirit.", this is where the part from the Ephesians text you quoted earlier ". . . it is the gift of God—" comes into play, that the door to salvation is opened to us if we were to enter.

You are confusing the work of Jesus with the work of the Holy Spirit Jmdewey.

It is Jesus dying and rising that saves you Jmdewey not the fruit of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not die on a cross and rise for you Jmdewey...
...He produces fruit once you have been saved by the work of Jesus.

The two roles are distinct although never separate...
...and like the Roman Catholics you confuse Jesus work for you with the Spirit's work in you.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


That's not game over. Hebrews was written to unbelieving Jews and newly converted Jews at the time the temple was still standing and the morning and evening sacrifice was still being performed. It's exhorting new Jewish converts to press on to spiritual maturity instead of returning to Judaism in the face of persecution. Paul is in essence saying "If you return to that and sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."

Sorry, quoting something COMPLETELY out of context isn't "game over". Use just a tablespoon of contextual theology for Pete sake.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Or in other words confusing the past tense of salvation (justification) with the present tense of salvation (sanctification).

reply to post by troubleshooter

You are confusing the work of Jesus with the work of the Holy Spirit Jmdewey.

It is Jesus dying and rising that saves you Jmdewey not the fruit of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not die on a cross and rise for you Jmdewey...
...He produces fruit once you have been saved by the work of Jesus.

The two roles are distinct although never separate...
...and like the Roman Catholics you confuse Jesus work for you with the Spirit's work in you.

So what is your point in all of this, that you have a systematic theology to explain all of this?
Your work, from what I was reading in your earlier post, is finding the key to unlock salvation so you can claim it by right of your superior intellect, how to force the hand of God to save you.
To me, it is exactly your brand of theology that Ephesians was warning about when it says, "lest any man should boast".
Entry into the new life with Christ as your guide is a free gift with no requirements other than the willingness to be led, not the memorization of legal loopholes in the Bible for how to avoid any self accountability for your life from this point on.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Not at all jm. No "forcing the hand of God", that's in essence witchcraft. But we should rest our faith in what He has already said in His Word. Or as the old saying goes: "We are not saved by making promises to God, we are saved by trusting the promises God has made in His Word." Christ already promised that all the Father had given to Him would come to Him and that no one who called upon His Name would be cast out. We look to Him for our redemption just as the ancient Hebrews looked upon the brass serpent to be healed from the snake bites. All who looked at the serpent were healed and all who look to Christ are redeemed. Christ said all who believe already possess eternal life.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No one is redeemed to a life of sin.
No one is saved for sin.
Believing you are saved while continuing on as you were before is belief in witchcraft as you have suggested.
You believe in a cruel world-vision filled with hate and crime in perpetuity. I don't.
Jesus came to save the world, not to hand out exemptions to maintain the status quo.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

That's not game over. Hebrews was written to unbelieving Jews and newly converted Jews at the time the temple was still standing and the morning and evening sacrifice was still being performed. It's exhorting new Jewish converts to press on to spiritual maturity instead of returning to Judaism in the face of persecution. Paul is in essence saying "If you return to that and sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."

Sorry, quoting something COMPLETELY out of context isn't "game over". Use just a tablespoon of contextual theology for Pete sake.

An unbelieving Jew would ignore the passage about Jesus' sacrifice for us, because they are 'unbelieving'

If they are a 'new convert' then 'Once Saved Always Saved' applies (according to your theology), absolutely no need for a message of any pressing on to 'spiritual maturity' as now they can be completely cut-off from the Vine, return back to Judaism and they are 'still gonna make it', right!

Methinks the passage is quoted in perfect usage for us right now, and no side-stepping gets around it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No one is redeemed to a life of sin.
No one is saved for sin.
Believing you are saved while continuing on as you were before is belief in witchcraft as you have suggested.
You believe in a cruel world-vision filled with hate and crime in perpetuity. I don't.
Jesus came to save the world, not to hand out exemptions to maintain the status quo.

Ok so how is that going for ya JD ... have you stopped sinning yet?

I understand SDA's have got to be sinless before the second coming...
...so are you there yet bro...
...I think we might be waiting a long time for that to happen eh JD?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No one is redeemed to a life of sin.
No one is saved for sin.
Believing you are saved while continuing on as you were before is belief in witchcraft as you have suggested.
You believe in a cruel world-vision filled with hate and crime in perpetuity. I don't.
Jesus came to save the world, not to hand out exemptions to maintain the status quo.

Who is claiming such? No one here is claiming we are saved TO a life of sin. Paul shoots down the idea of people redeemed from their sins continuing to live in them, and Philippians 2:13 applies here. The Holy Spirit changes our wills to align with God's will.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


The entire letter has two groups of people as it's audience. 1. Unsaved Jews and 2. new converts from Judaism.

If you understand Greek the author of Hebrews is utilizing a reductio ad absurdum.

reply to post by troubleshooter

Ok so how is that going for ya JD ... have you stopped sinning yet?

I understand SDA's have got to be sinless before the second coming...
...so are you there yet bro...
...I think we might be waiting a long time for that to happen eh JD?

Right now, I don't feel like I am waiting for anything like the end of the world. I know a lot of people expect that, but I am not presently letting the possibility affect me either way and regard it more like a hypothetical.
The sin thing I think depends on how you define the word. I think biblically, once you get a firm grasp of what you should and should not be doing, then you have no excuse for not acting accordingly.
I see there being a serious sort of sin which is something akin to complete failure, which is something Paul suggests there is no remedy for. A lot of what people call sin is really mundane human foibles which is not what is going to prevent people from going to heaven, unless we make an art of retaining these flaws for some reason.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Holy Spirit changes our wills to align with God's will.

The true believer becomes a new person, not someone who decides to adapt to some new set of rules to seem to be in compliance with expectations of others who will accept the man's conversion by observation. A person's spirit is replaced by a new spirit that comes from God through the intermediary, Jesus.
A superficial version of that is not sufficient. You seem to be talking about some dressed up form of moral relativism where you gauge your righteousness by the standard of others around you and your judgment of their behavior, instead of God's standard, and the example of Jesus.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

That's not game over. Hebrews was written to unbelieving Jews and newly converted Jews at the time the temple was still standing and the morning and evening sacrifice was still being performed. It's exhorting new Jewish converts to press on to spiritual maturity instead of returning to Judaism in the face of persecution. Paul is in essence saying "If you return to that and sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."

Sorry, quoting something COMPLETELY out of context isn't "game over". Use just a tablespoon of contextual theology for Pete sake.

it is game over ~!

he did list the verse's and you're pick them out as you like to read them..

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Ok so how is that going for ya JD ... have you stopped sinning yet?

I understand SDA's have got to be sinless before the second coming...
...so are you there yet bro...
...I think we might be waiting a long time for that to happen eh JD?

Right now, I don't feel like I am waiting for anything like the end of the world. I know a lot of people expect that, but I am not presently letting the possibility affect me either way and regard it more like a hypothetical.

That's good for it is in the disposition of the Father only tp know that...

Matthew 24:36 "...of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

The sin thing I think depends on how you define the word. I think biblically, once you get a firm grasp of what you should and should not be doing, then you have no excuse for not acting accordingly.
I see there being a serious sort of sin which is something akin to complete failure, which is something Paul suggests there is no remedy for. A lot of what people call sin is really mundane human foibles which is not what is going to prevent people from going to heaven, unless we make an art of retaining these flaws for some reason.

When you dilute sin like you have here it makes it much less of a challenge to overcome eh?

Remember you must not only do right but also think right JD.

I pray that one day you might really know what it means to no longer have the dominion of sin over you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The only sin man made is to believe that he is separate from God. This sin (mistake) is the cause of all human suffering. You said earlier in a reply to me that 'hu' means special/unique so 'hu'man is not just man.
Jesus came to tell us that we are not apart/separate from God but most humans are still looking to find God, some hope that God will be found when death happens and this is true but you do not have to die physically, only mentally. The person you 'think' (mentally) you are is not what you are.
Know thyself.

Originally posted by Komodo
it is game over ~!
he did list the verse's and you're pick them out as you like to read them..

I listed the verses that show he's wrong. YOU all are cherry picking only what you want and then interpreting them in your own way to fit your false idea of once saved always saved. Right back atchya.

(this is why scripture spitting contests are waste of time.)

- Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
- Romans 13:11 "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).
- Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46).
- Jesus - ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)
- Jesus - there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)
- Paul - "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).
- Paul said "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21)

NOTE .. there are CONDITIONS to receiving God's kindness .. otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF.
NOTE .. You must endure to the end to be saved.
NOTE .. Salvation must be worked out.

Get it yet? You can throw away the gift of salvation. You must stay awake and endure ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


"NOTE .. there are CONDITIONS to receiving God's kindness .. otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF.
NOTE .. You must endure to the end to be saved.
NOTE .. Salvation must be worked out"

There are conditions that keep you from realizing peace and contentment. The mind is what is conditioned to believe all sorts of things. Look for the conditioning, the beliefs, the ideas that make you believe you are separate from God.
The only thing one needs to be saved from is the belief that you are a person. The person you think you are is the one that has to go. Be liberated from a false sense of self and know thyself.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Holy Spirit changes our wills to align with God's will.

The true believer becomes a new person, not someone who decides to adapt to some new set of rules to seem to be in compliance with expectations of others who will accept the man's conversion by observation. A person's spirit is replaced by a new spirit that comes from God through the intermediary, Jesus.
A superficial version of that is not sufficient. You seem to be talking about some dressed up form of moral relativism where you gauge your righteousness by the standard of others around you and your judgment of their behavior, instead of God's standard, and the example of Jesus.

No, I'm talking about Philippians 2:13.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, I'm talking about Philippians 2:13.

That verse is speaking corporately in regards to the Philipians church.
Another case of your use of out-of-context "proof texts" while ignoring the broader teachings of Paul.

reply to post by troubleshooter

When you dilute sin like you have here it makes it much less of a challenge to overcome eh?

Remember you must not only do right but also think right JD.

I pray that one day you might really know what it means to no longer have the dominion of sin over you.

Maybe some day you will come to a decision whether sinning is important or not.

Is John "diluting sin" here?

If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that.