Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Dav1d

 

So the media has access to telephoto lens, and can take pictures at great distances.... Could the real reason be they wish to hide how offen the dogs 'HIT'?!? This page also acknowledges that there have been multiple searches

There's information about this in a link I don't have at my fingertips. It explains they don't want the dogs photographed while working to 'give away' to the public just how they work. Yeah, sounded weird to me too, but there ya go...

I'll get back to your other posts in a few and comb through the threads to find the link to above.

Thanks

Let's be honest here, no amount of photographs will allow the 'public' to understand how a dog smells. Any good libaray will have multiple books on how to do search patterns. There is no 'magic' here. Other than the belief in the dogs ~ that a dog 'hit' on a scent above the floor that had to have come from a dead body.... This dog is magical in the sense that it gets to testify against us, and we can't ask it questions! We can't cross examine it. Hell we are not even permitted to see pictures of it 'working' because the government fears what we might learn....

reply to post by Michelle129th

Many are suggesting this dog hit is from a prior death but I'm sure the dogs are trained better than that. It stands to reason in an old house of that age someone very easily could have been dead in it at some time. Surely the dogs are wiser than to HIT on a 40 year old deceased spot.

reply to post by schmae


You know because of some of the ways this is going down, they may be trying to create red herrings for people who are not very smart or have access to discussion boards like this one that could clue them in.

Perhaps its all baiting in one form or another.

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by Dav1d

 

I just don't really put much into ANY of the sightings for some reason. If you were carrying a kidnapped OR deceased baby, why would you walk in the light and down semi busy streets? It just doesn't jive with me and the video of the person near the convenience store doesnt look like a man or woman in pants or a dress and carrying anything. There is no way anyone can see enough of that person to determine anything. It just doesn't make sense.

How do most criminals get caught? They get observed as they get away.... Someone gives a description of their car..... You have a wooded area, secluded, it makes a twisted kind of sense to me. Staying in the woods would prevent one from being seen, not many care to walk in the woods in the middle of the night.

Perhaps it is a homeless person who needed a child in order to get assistance?

For the past twenty-nine (29) years, COPPInc organization has made a difference in the lives of those who live on the streets, under bridges, in Kansas City shelters and low income housing. Winter in Kansas/ Missouri creates special needs for the poor and homeless to survive the harsh weather. There are over 15,000 Kansas City individuals that fall in this category.

pressreleases.kcstar.com.../69114

antar I was thinking along those lines as well (homeless person), but a little differently. Several people have said that noone in their right mind would abduct a baby and then walk around for hours with it. Well that statement alone pretty much says it all "in their right mind". To abduct a baby your mind is already pretty much in question. It could have been someone totally not in their right mind that didn't think about being caught, or surveilled or even thought this was a normal thing to do. If it was too chilly for a child in a diaper out that night it was probably also too chilly to walk around in just a tshirt...so already (and only IF the eyewitnesses are true) the person is not completely "all there"

Michelle

reply to post by schmae

Which would also mean they have a 40 year old carpet?
EWWWW!
That's just gross...

peace

One thing that ticks me off about this case are things like this that seem to be pretty prevalent in the search for Lisa

Lisa Irwin's age makes her harder to find...

In the above article this line stood out..

The problem, officials say, is that at her age - just 10 months when she went missing on Oct. 4 - countless babies match the same description, right down to the bright blue eyes and two bottom teeth. She does have a distinguishing birth mark on her right thigh, but that would hardly be noticed from a distance. "There is a kind of generic, cute little baby, little chubby cheek, bald-headed baby look," said Ernie Allen, president of the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "But our message to the public is, look at her picture.

And at the top of the article is this picture of Lisa...



This same picture..which I'd age at more around the 3-6 month mark. It's being used on most news sites and articles and even on some of the "missing" signs/flyers they're distributing. It makes no sense..I get that many pictures would be floating around of the baby by now, but if I were (especially in the media's shoes) wanting to get this baby found....put up the most recent picture you dough heads!!!

Michelle

reply to post by Michelle129th

No joke - here they are saying how important it is and they're not even using an accurate picture themselves. Talk about *face palm*.

Does it seem to you like sometimes they're being inept on purpose???

Thanks for the link - great stuff that...

peace

Originally posted by OneMeanMom
I would take those photos of her now as a woman who is more concerned with looks and appearances than the problem at hand. Now that we know she has a possible drinking problem, a husband whom she is not divorced from, is living with and has a child from another man, and so far has not given the straight forward truth as to the events leading up to and during Lisa's possible kidnapping. Based on that she is not exactly a woman with strong moral values. I would have been hitting the streets from day one searching for my child, handing out fliers, and joining every single vigil held in the child’s honor, NOT hiding at my parent’s house, or going to a salon for a new look. From what I have seen so far, this is a missing child with a mother who LOVES attention and boy is she getting it!

I see a woman who has done paid public appearances...to most likely pay for very expensive private eyes, and lawyers.

I don't see a woman who loves attention.. more a woman who is going through a lot of pain.

None of us know what she has done to find baby Lisa..or what the private detectives have done..

You sound like someone who has a lot of "negativity" for this woman... like many others do..

Considering that in your introduction you stated how this board had way too many naysayers, and negative thinkers.. I find this "accusatory" description of Debbie very disappointing..

Have fun bringing your "positive" vibes to the forum

Originally posted by Michelle129th
This is getting a little messy with all the quotes, so hopefully I can keep it tidy and readable. Before I do though I wanted to make it a bit more clear that the actual search warrant states "The cadaver dog indicated a positive "hit" for the scent of a deceased human in an area of the floor of Bradley's bedroom near the bed" I noticed a few times people had said "near the floor". I don't know that that necessarily makes a difference or not. It is a weirdly worded phrase...I would think if it was the actual floor it would say "a positive "hit" of the floor/carpet/whatever" but I've never read another search warrant so I don't know if they're all worded oddly or not. A thought is that because it is carpeting and not just bare floor perhaps the police were unclear of whether the dog was hitting on the carpet itself or of the flooring underneath? If there was carpeting on top of other flooring they wouldn't be sure exactly what flooring the dog was hitting on...but again if that was the case why not take the area of carpeting the dog hit on and then test the carpet and the bare floor separately again with the dog? So many possibilities.

The wording I have is,

On October 17, 2011 an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the residence upon concent of Irwin and Bradley. The cadaver dog indicated a positive "hit" for the scent of a deceased human in an area of the floor of Bradley's bedroom near the bed.

The foregoing is true to the best belief and knowledge, further affiant saith not.

Det. Kimberly Shirley-Williams

The "foregoing is true to the best belief and knowledge"? Note not the foregoing is true to the best of my belief and knowledge, but a much broader and less personal statement in my opinion. Having been required to give sworn testimony I find this wording very odd.... Also the cadaver dog handler who would have the best knowledge of the dog, has made no statement here. Why would the court be incline to knowingly accept second hand testimony? This officer is NOT a K9 officer, and even if she was, this is an FBI cadaver dog brought in from outside this area, something she is unlikely to have firsthand knowledge of. There is more here than meets the eye here!

I’d hate to think so but the bedroom is a huge mess. I mean look at it. Even if the picture of the room was taken after the search I don’t think the police are going to trash it that badly?

To David...there room did look a bit messy, and having 3 kids myself, there are times that i'm walking over toys, clothes, bedding etc, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities.

I would suggest that none of your children are missing, either. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I believe most normal parents would demonstrate more concern for a missing child's things....

Where is one most likely to find baby Lisa's clothes and bedding? I suggest in her room. So logically we have most of the items unlikely to be found in the parents room.

I agree some people do keep their kids' belongings solely in the kids' rooms or a playroom or whatever, but seeing there are at the very least diapers in the parents room I think they are probably pretty lax with that. I am a "keep it to your room" mom but I know some parents that have more kids' belongings in their bedroom than their own lol

Once again I can't help but think if your child is missing, if these might be the last keepsakes you have of your child, you would treat them different? Look at little Lisa closet, it appears very organize to me. If for no other reason that to attempt to keep the scent of Lisa on her things, and uncontaminated?

I watched the morning up-date on missing baby Lisa on the news today, seems like nothing has changed. I mentioned to my husband that the mother had got a cut and color job on her hair. I asked what he thought, his response is that if our child was missing he still would not have bathed, he would be showing pictures, asking, talking but never getting his hair done. I know that people all act different in different situations but.... for someone who couldn't stop crying the first few days, Deborah certainly has pulled herself together. I am not saying she killed her child but her behavior is curious. Also the Dad acts like a mute, have they questioned him lately? I think he is scared of her.

Okay, those are my shots for the day, I will now play nice.

Oh my goodness, I bet that cadaver dog
is smarter then most of the keyboard detectives
in this thread.

Originally posted by AuntB
I watched the morning up-date on missing baby Lisa on the news today, seems like nothing has changed. I mentioned to my husband that the mother had got a cut and color job on her hair. I asked what he thought, his response is that if our child was missing he still would not have bathed, he would be showing pictures, asking, talking but never getting his hair done. I know that people all act different in different situations but.... for someone who couldn't stop crying the first few days, Deborah certainly has pulled herself together. I am not saying she killed her child but her behavior is curious. Also the Dad acts like a mute, have they questioned him lately? I think he is scared of her.

Okay, those are my shots for the day, I will now play nice.

The public is more likely to help someone who is clean and smelling nice then someone who has not bathed in days.

Keeping up ones grooming is important.

I don't think she is guilty of anything but being an alcoholic.

To David...

I would suggest that none of your children are missing, either. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I believe most normal parents would demonstrate more concern for a missing child's things....

I got you now...I was thinking along a totally different vein..as in the everyday disarray of a house. But yes, it would make sense that if your child was missing you would treat every last piece of anything belonging to them with tender loving care.

That said, from different stories it seems the family haven't been living in the home since almost day one..I wonder if in their speediness to relocate they didn't just leave everything as is. Also if perhaps they were told to not touch anything by police?

I am truly leaning towards this not being the parents at all. Don't know why, never really gave it much thought in the past but for some reason in this case I feel they are being honest as to their knowledge of WHERE Lisa might be. I think the shadiness and "hiding something" is protection of their own butts and knowing what the public will think if certain parenting practices of theirs are put under the spotlight. At this point I truly seriously hope that them not telling full truths, or hiding certain facts have not hindered an investigation in any way...They will have to live with that the rest of their lives if so...

In a twisted way I can see how/why the mom would hide the black out drunkeness. The police would probably not have looked much further than her property for that baby. It probably would not even have made an amber alert. She would have been suspect #1 from the start without even a fair shot at a search and rescue.

Michelle

Perhaps the reason for the disarray in the home is because they were told at first to not disturb things to much..

also ..they have not been at the home very much since this happened.

It's difficult to sort through Lisa's things lovingly, when you are not there.

Seems like a lot of 'straw" grabbing to make these people look like they don't care..when in fact there could be some very valid reasons for the home being left the way it is..

I would like to add..that I have been hoping that some good souls... who care about what happens to children, have been looking on the child porn sites.. for any evidence of baby Lisa.. I'm sure they have some detectives on the case.. going through the crud that is out there on the net.. looking for clues.

Thank you to anyone who does this for the purpose of finding missing and exploited children..

whether you are from anon, or work with the law.. your time and effort is appreciated..

reply to post by OneMeanMom

I would take those photos of her now as a woman who is more concerned with looks and appearances than the problem at hand.

I’m sorry I forgot who posted about women who cut their hair as a sign of change. After the death of a loved on, the breakup of a relationship, a move to a new town - it’s like they’re separating themselves from who they were and who they have become. Interesting that huh.

Now that we know she has a possible drinking problem, a husband whom she is not divorced from, is living with and has a child from another man, and so far has not given the straight forward truth as to the events leading up to and during Lisa's possible kidnapping. Based on that she is not exactly a woman with strong moral values.

It doesn’t seem so but I’m truly trying not to judge. Oh, I’ll judge about the ‘adult time’ - but the rest? Wow, I just don’t know.

I would have been hitting the streets from day one searching for my child, handing out fliers, and joining every single vigil held in the child’s honor, NOT hiding at my parent’s house, or going to a salon for a new look. From what I have seen so far, this is a missing child with a mother who LOVES attention and boy is she getting it!

I’d be doing the same. And I sure wouldn’t be keeping quiet to the local newscasters but talking national. It seems Lisa’s mom truly has a problem with priorities. We have to hope that’s all it is!

Welcome to ATS! Nice to have you here!

peace

reply to post by Jessicamsa

If she is an alcoholic do you think she is still hitting the wine box nightly? She must be otherwise she would be in withdrawal- correct?

As for appearances- well are we all so petty as to only help nice looking people or are we looking for a missing child? As for the not bathing, basically it was you don't waltz in and get the works normally if your child is missing. IMO appearance are not important when your heart is being ripped apart.

reply to post by Jessicamsa

I don't think she is guilty of anything but being an alcoholic.

Alcoholic, bad choices, lack of priorities. Yes, we can hope that's all it is. And I really do. I truly hope Lisa didn't know anything at the hands of her mother but love...like we wish for all children. It will be a horrible disappointment if we're wrong and she did have a hand in Lisa's disappearance. Nothing we can do about the past, but we can keep hope for Lisa and the future.

peace