Sin, What is it, and is it Anything We Need to be Concerned About?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It's possible to commit a sin of omission and commission without deliberate thought.

That is just philosophy and not from the New Testament.

So every sin possibly committed is determined, and deliberately thought about beforehand? Every one?

Maybe you need to redefine "sin".
Slip-ups and mistakes are probably slip-ups and mistakes, not sins.
I was saying earlier that unintentional sin is an OT concept because if you did sin intentionally that would be grounds for being excluded from Israel. That was what would be comparable to "salvation" in NT thinking, just being a member of the nation or people. There was no eternal life, just your descendants inheriting membership in this group that God had promised good things for. So all the sacrifices were for unintentional sins, and there was no sacrifice for any other kind because you would be a rebel and thrown out of the community. Rebellion being the cardinal sin.
In the dark ages, you had the church combining with the state as a parallel branch of government and if you had rebellion, or heresy in your heart, they could just kill you. Short of that, where you did not seem to be able to cause a total collapse of government, they could throw you out of the community by a banishment from participating in the group that was given the promise by God of eternal life, by the mechanism of excommunication.
But there still needed to be sacrifices and demonstrations of the subjugation of the individual to authority so things that were not outright rebellion could be atoned for through payment or the doing of works.
These were not cardinal sins but a new idea invented for this purpose, venial sins.
So my point is, unintentional sin is a hold-over from the Dark Ages, where people did not own Bibles and they were forced to believe whatever the Church told them to believe.
I think as long as you refrain from real sin, which is what causes you to be exiled, executed, or excommunicated, or to put it in NT terms, being outside the community of God, by living in darkness to do evil, then the Lord and the Holy Spirit will be with you and you will not have so many slip-ups and mistakes.
That's my opinion but I believe it comes from reading the Bible and not from accepting philosophy.

reply to post by jmdewey60

That's my opinion but I believe it comes from reading the Bible and not from accepting philosophy.

There is no "philosophy" JM. Did you read my example a page back that I did this week? Christ said to honor all men, and to love your neighbor as yourself, and to pray for and to bless those who are your enemies. I didn't, in the heat of the exchange I didn't act towards my neighbor like a Christian is supposed to. That's sins of commission and omission, I did what I wasn't supposed to, and failed to do what I was called to do in that situation. And immediately I was undr conviction for what I had done.

I didn't purposely and deliberately seek out my neighbor to engage in unpleasantries with.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
No, I missed that post.
This is something, from reading your description here, that you should maybe apologize for with this person and maybe pray about, that you can control yourself better.
These are ordinary things that even "heathen" can understand and deal with.
Christianity has standards that go beyond the obvious things and includes what "the heathen" would think was perfectly normal and never feel bad about.
Again, this is my opinion and and I am not trying to dictate "truth".
This is a discussion forum and I invite other views.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I am calm and was calm when i asked you. sorry if you feel opposite for whatever reason. I actually requested that you not read to much into them and stated they were just some honest questions.

Yes, I noticed the word deliberate and am aware of the definition. If the definition of of sin is the "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God" and if the definition of deliberate is "Done consciously and intentionally"

How can something done unintentionally be considered a sin?

Thanks. I am calm and simply asking questions in the hope that you will explain this contradiction.

reply to post by jmdewey60


If I see him again I will purpose to apologize and make it right. I've repented to God. My entire point is, we can do things without thinking clearly and in adverse situations that when all is said and done we feel rotten for and know we've either failed to do as we've been told, or realize we've done something that we've been told not to do. Both was the case for me on Wednesday, and felt that conviction immediately.

I didn't intentionally and deliberately intend to be that way with the neighbor, it was a rash thing, and I'm quite sorry for my actions and speech. Bottom line is, I still failed to do what Christ commanded, that's sin.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I don't think getting angry is the same as hating someone.
Jesus was saying murder is a sin, and if you hate someone, then you are guilty of a sin.
You are trying to take it a step farther, adding another step where there was not one before, to link what you did, to murder.
I think it says not to let the sun go down on your anger, which would imply to me, that you allow your anger to grow into something worse.
The sin is murder, don't forget that.
You want to be a better person to be better at avoiding a type of mentality that would lead to murder.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

If I see him again I will purpose to apologize and make it right. I've repented to God. My entire point is, we can do things without thinking clearly and in adverse situations that when all is said and done we feel rotten for and know we've either failed to do as we've been told, or realize we've done something that we've been told not to do. Both was the case for me on Wednesday, and felt that conviction immediately.

I didn't intentionally and deliberately intend to be that way with the neighbor, it was a rash thing, and I'm quite sorry for my actions and speech. Bottom line is, I still failed to do what Christ commanded, that's sin.

That's all fine and good, but is this really the way that Jesus would have is look at sin.. let me explain.

1) The Pauline Interpretation (derived from St. Paul's need to discipline an early Church)
"Oops I sinned must repent, missed the mark on that one, I must repent, feeling guilty about my encounter with so and so I must repent, to remain obedient to the will of God"

2) What Jesus might have us do...

"You presume that I've come to examine you, in order to judge you by strict standards of the law, and prod you along to do my will the will of love - children, brothers! Why isn't my love sufficient enough for you?! I didn't come to you so that you might be placed in another trap, my love liberates you from it and your love, which is also my love, will bring everything to light, until your light like mine, will overpower the darkness of sin and evil, as sharply as scythe set to harvest for God the love of God. God's love for you is of unimaginable proportion, and you are to busy accounting for your every sin to notice it! LOL hey Peter, could you please pass the meat, and Martha dear, more wine if you could there's a particularly fine vintage in the top cupboard."


The love and life of Christ is a celebration of his love and love to be love must be free and we are set free for the sake of freedom, to freely love as we are loved.

"Resist not evil"

"That which we resist, persists."


My point being that the standard of love by which all things are measured, contains imbedded within itself, all the power to overcome sin, not with continual pangs of guilt and self admonishment, but with laughter at ourselves and our own folly and ignorance. Once the light of the sprite is tuned on, all we need to do is move up the setting, then these things become an automatic process, of light filled awareness, dispelling our ignorance on the fly, immediately sifted on Chris's threshing floor.

The more liberated POV isn't permission to sin, it's permission, to love MORE, as we are loved, where love is free, just like the spirit of God.


This is what the spirit is telling me.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

1) The Pauline Interpretation (derived from St. Paul's need to discipline an early Church)
"Oops I sinned must repent, missed the mark on that one, I must repent, feeling guilty about my encounter with so and so I must repent, to remain obedient to the will of God"

That may be what eventually came out of the Pauline school but I don't think Paul himself was like that.
He seems to preach repentance and righteousness and forgiveness and the guiding faith, then hope for the best.
When things fall apart in a particular community, he beaks down and spells out some examples of what should have been obvious that they should not have been engaged in.
Christianity to me is like a failure waiting to happen because you always have superficial believers who are only interested in the benefits but don't want to downgrade their level of entertainment, so those end up lowering the standard for the whole community. Paul became exasperated to where he was ordering others to throw such people out and give them to the devil, for the sake of those who would be led astray by their bad example.
When Christianity got to where it was in a church/state relationship including a monopoly, there was motivation to keep as many people as possible in the system, so that is where you get down to a sin by sin examination of people's lives.

My only point is the love is infinitely more enjoyable than sin. It brings its own repentance, and the eternal smile that blots out the stain of our sins, washing us with the love of God itself, as we grow and evolve to greature maturity in Christ.

It wasn't't wasn't Paul fault no, but only what the Roman church and it's various spinoffs did with it, yes as a state, to help regulate unruly masses, not dissimilar to what Paul faced, although I would imagine once political calculations enter in, for less noble pursuits.

And it's this frame of reference, this false understanding and ignorance about the faith, which is now undermining Christianity as a "Religion".

But the Church does not hold Christ a captive either... which is why the conversation will continue until full "grocking" is realized.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

And it's this frame of reference, this false understanding and ignorance about the faith, which is now undermining Christianity as a "Religion".

There is a cold calculating sort of mentality, interspersed with moments of frenzy.
Hypnotic and seductive.
Scientists of human behavior mixing up a batch of sorcery for mystery Babylon.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yeah a valve of convenience for temporal power, with which to both regulate the masses and rule the world for more than a thousand year, Jesus' love hijacked by cunning serpents, wolves in sheep's clothing.

Now more than half of Christendom fancies themselves part of an "exclusive club", everyone else condemned to eternal damnation, countless millions of true Jesus lovers having been murdered in the name of Christ to uphold the power doctrine.

It would almost be comical if it wasn't so utterly tragic and so sad.

And on this anvil, misguided atheists, forge their weapons in service to the God of reason, seething with hatred.towards this grotesque monster called Christianity.

Thankfully, this isn't the whole story and the devil will not get the last laugh at humanity's and God's expense.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

And it's this frame of reference, this false understanding and ignorance about the faith, which is now undermining Christianity as a "Religion".

There is a cold calculating sort of mentality, interspersed with moments of frenzy.
Hypnotic and seductive.
Scientists of human behavior mixing up a batch of sorcery for mystery Babylon.

edit on 10-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Thank you for restoring to the light side of the force, the last laugh, because that was funny!

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I don't think getting angry is the same as hating someone.
Jesus was saying murder is a sin, and if you hate someone, then you are guilty of a sin.
You are trying to take it a step farther, adding another step where there was not one before, to link what you did, to murder.
I think it says not to let the sun go down on your anger, which would imply to me, that you allow your anger to grow into something worse.
The sin is murder, don't forget that.
You want to be a better person to be better at avoiding a type of mentality that would lead to murder.

I didn't hate the man, but I didn't love him as a neighbor, I didn't love him as I'd love myself. That's a sin. in the new covenant Christ gave us two commands, love God, love people. What I did was wrong and the evidence for that was immediate conviction from the Holy Spirit. I will rectify it next time I see that neighbor.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Sin = corruption of our free will in any sense.
Evil = absence of thought with intention to do a harm.

It's as simple as it gets from there on out.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I don't think it is always so much just a lack of love as much as a frustration over circumstances.
The last time I flipped out on someone was when this person decided to remove some old fencing in my back yard just because they didn't like it. Being attached to the things of the world can be a cause of problems and it may take a lot to get to where you don't have those feelings.

Originally posted by Unvarnished
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Sin = corruption of our free will in any sense.
Evil = absence of thought with intention to do a harm.

It's as simple as it gets from there on out.

Some people put a lot of thought into their evil.

But it can never be considered evil, to talk about God's love. I just want get that "on the record". We should never demonize a brother in Christ, when he's trying to share something of God's infinite love and kindness. Talk about painful.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Being attached to the things of the world can be a cause of problems and it may take a lot to get to where you don't have those feelings.

Well, yeah, that's Baal worship, idolarty.

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

Romans 7:15



And technically speaking, not acting to my neighbor in a Christian manner was taking the Lord's name in vain. That commandment wasn't about vocabulary, but about ambassadorship. We carry the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are the light of the world, the salt of the Earth. When we act like I did on Wednesday we are not being the feet and hands of Jesus. I was wrong, I repented immediately, and realized I messed up.

God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
We are both doing the same thing and it is hard to get away from it, which is referring back to Moses and Sinai, where I brought up the sin of murder, and now you bring up the sin of taking God's name in vain.
I think you were right in correcting me earlier, that the basic law is the Law of Love.
So, to be a Christian is like that summer camp fireside song, "They will know we are Christians by our love."
To repeat an ongoing theme with me, when you read Romans seven you have to understand Paul is talking about the Law of Moses he was struggling with. His problem may have been something he did not want to come right out and say but it seems likely that his problem was not being filled with disgust from being even in close proximity with a gentile.