Israeli schoolbus hit with anti-tank weapon fired from Gaza, critically wounding teen

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Same can be said about both sides of this debate-

People who *want* to find evidence of false flag, *will* eventually find what they're looking for.

Just because you go against conventional thinking doesn't make you right.

As with anything there's always room for doubt, but it's important to remain unbiased and reasonable.

With respect,
Eliad.

Well the above statement is biased as it appears to lump people with objective and critical minds into a school of people who 'want' to 'find' something in specific.

Something that by your own admission they will likely find, presumably in this case because Israel does have a known and consistent track record of staging false flag style 'incidents' for political reason and affect.

Hopefully you will be taking your own sage advice in regards to being unbiased and reasonable.

Do please forgive me if I elect not to hold my breath in waiting for what some might describe as a 'miracle'.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I deal with what you describe, as well as considerably more complex issues, everyday I go into work. I am conpletely confident in my assesment of how investigations work and how the judicial system works, and how investigations work. I have seen you attempt to grasp how the law enforcement side works, and you are getting closer to understanding it, but you are still a long ways off, in the woods... deep in the woods.

and by the way, the argument that you have the most stars on the site, doesnt make you correct. It just means others are as ignorant in some topics to the same extent you are. Its sad when you try to argue popularity of answer over facts.

Your confusion aside, I see you are doing the same thing others have done - which is to ignore the question asked. Either you have an answer for it, or you dont.

How can you guys support Hamas, while at the same time accusing them of being controlled by Mossad? That train of thought undermines all the arguments you guys have presented to date.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well the above statement is biased as it appears to lump people with objective and critical minds into a school of people who 'want' to 'find' something in specific.

The term is the mind see what it wants. If you go out looking for a conspiracy, you can find one. Proving it is the key part that some absolutely have no clue about.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Something that by your own admission they will likely find, presumably in this case because Israel does have a known and consistent track record of staging false flag style 'incidents' for political reason and affect.

and Hamas has a known and consitent track record of launching rockets / missiles into Israel, at civilian targets. Hamas has a rpven record of using off limit locations (schools / Hoispitals) to launch attacks into Israel, knowing that a reponse will cause civilian deaths on their side, which they then use as a political propoganda tool for effect.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Hopefully you will be taking your own sage advice in regards to being unbiased and reasonable.

Which he has done.. What has been biased in the thread is the arguments coming from a few of you. Instead of looking just at the incident iteself, you guys have been all over the place, offering up one theory after another, that is not supported by the evidence.

Still waiting on the training photo proof
Still waiting on the hamas stated they attack the bus with a rocket proof

Being unbiased also means looking at both sides of the story, and looking at all infomration present. Starting out by saying no Israeli sources, and then turning around and using bits and pieces of those sources, does not make one unbiased.

The phrase you are looking for here to describe yourself would be this:

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Do please forgive me if I elect not to hold my breath in waiting for what some might describe as a 'miracle'.
Thanks.

The miracle will be when people on both sides can view each other without preconceived notions. If every action Israel takes is suspect, and every action Hamas takes is suspect, all we are left with are higher and higher body counts.

The MIracle, and I am hoping it takes hold, is the recent unrest growing in Gaza and the West bank, taking their que from the other uprisigngs occuring in some arab countries.

Egypt just announced they are opening the border crossing with Gaza unrestricted. Here is Hamas's chance to prove the world they are not a terrorist organization by acting responsibly now. There are no Israeli troops in Gaza, the border is open with egypt to get aid into the country.

What reason does Hamas have now to attack Israel?

Egypt to open border crossing with Gaza - ATS Thread

again, one more point about conflicting reports.

here we see articles, different dates, different articles, different claims.


4-12-2011 Hamas denies because "is to far away from populated area"

Hamas: Israel's Claims About the Bus Are False

Reported: 00:44 AM - Apr/12/11

Hamas is rejecting Israel’s claims that the school bus that was hit by a rocket last Thursday was carrying school children.

In a report that appeared on Monday in Hamas’ daily newspaper, Falastin, group member Imad Al-Hadidi said that Israel’s claims are false, saying that it is unlikely that a bus would be driving children so far away from a populated area. Al-Hadidi added that there were no photographs of injured children and ambulances evacuating them, ignoring the fact that the children got off the bus a short time before the attack.

“Israel is distorting history and is making up tear jerker stories to get sympathy, just as it exaggerated on the subject of the Holocaust,” said Al-Hadidi.

www.israelnationalnews.com...


and this report 3 days earlier 4-9-2011

Uriel Sinai / Getty Images(JERUSALEM) — Hamas said Saturday that militants did not intend to target an Israeli school bus that was hit two days ago by a Hamas-fired rocket. A 16-year-old boy was critically wounded in the attack and the bus driver was moderately wounded.

martinsvillemedia.com...


and this with no claim at first on 4-7-2011

Israel's defense minister, Ehud Barak, ordered the army to respond quickly and said he held the Hamas militant group, which rules Gaza, responsible for the violence. There was no claim of responsibility for the attack.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...


and here we see a claim on 4-7-2011

07-04-2011,21:44

Al Qassam website - Gaza-Ezzedeen Al Qassam Brigades (E.Q.B) the military wing of the Islamic resistance movement Hamas declared in a military communiqué released on Thursday April 7, 201l the full responsibility for the operation of targeting Israeli bus traveling in the nearby Israeli settlement of Kfar Sa’ad east of Gaza Strip.

The brigades said that its fighters have targeted an Israeli bus at 15:05 PM.

qassam.ps...


MY problem is the CONFLICTING reports as well as the time of attack conflict.


other articles also place much emphisis on that Iron Dome defense system.

perhaps THAT thing dosn't work as good as reported ???

perhaps the false flag was actually directed on THAT thing performing up to par, to justify added FUNDING ??

-MY- opinion only IMO

working on some references .........

by the way, IS Nahal Oz heavily populated ?

or is it just a military base with civilian workers living there along side military families ?

or has the original population been relocated in the recent past because of dangerous conditions as result of past attacks in the vicinity ??

still not convinced.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a174e387ef2d.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Xcathdra


Do you have a SOURCE for your oft self evoked credentials as a Code Enforcement Henchman?

For a guy who wants to see a source for everything under the sun, you sure do ask people to rely on a lot in relation to your arguments regarding your contentions about your own credientials and detective work and investigative procedures and capabilities.

Any major News Article from any mainstream News Source naming you as lead investigator officer would suffice as a source.

Ideally it should be a high profile complex conspiracy like the Madoff afair or Enron.

Regardless I think it's absurd to believe an honest unbiased investigation into theis incident could be undertaken and completed in three weeks flat.

That's patently absurd.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Actually according to the news the location it was hit was around 31.477427,34.509087 but I recognized the curve a few meters forwards, I'm assuming it was moved there as it's less exposed.

Might explain the lack of glass.

Watch the videos I've provided, it shows all the fuss around the bus.

Look, this can't be false flag and it can't be an exercise, someone would have definitely picked up on it by now, and it makes absolutely no sense for anyone to film a training exercise like this..

The training theory just doesn't add up... If you've seen IDF training you'd understand. Use logic too, look at the videos, tell me this looks like training..

With respect,
Eliad.

O.K.,

"it looks like training" !

and I still have no explanation about the equipment on the side of the bus in multiple pics ..... seemingly not disturbed and with "questionable" backgrounds.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This is a lengthy read.. To those of you to lazy to get past one paragraph, you should find someone who can read it, and to those who dont graps comrphension I suggest you find someone to explain the folloowing to you.

I dont need to spully a source that I am a Police Officer. The sources I was demanding were the ones that supported the lies a few other people are making about the incident, nalesly it was not a guided missile, that is was not intentional as well as the now famous it was accidentally hit by a mortar.

I know me asking for source material to support those claims is problemtatic to people who are used to just making up lies and and not being questioned about it.

Apprently you arent heading your own advice about being unbiased and open minded.... Or maybe that was just a lie also?

And its ont absurd when Hamas releases statements claiming responsibility for the attack on a school bus by a guided anti tank missile.

I have provided ALL of my sources to support my argument, where as you and some other just make it up, then argue as to why you should have to support your claims with proof.

Accidental
False Flag
Training bus
Hamass controlled by Mossad
Israeli killing more peple than palestinians kill
conflicting reports
staged crime scene


You guys have pretty much blamed anyone and everyone under the sun for this incident, while ignoring the fact hamas took credit for it. And in traditional obfuscation you and some tohers use when your called out, you resort to circular arguments, ignore counter questions, and resort to personal attacks. My background is not in question, and neither is my experience. You are the one who started down that road, which again you made statements you cannot support. I will pit my experience against yours and day of the week and twice on Sundays.

At the rate your going though, you wont need me to undermine your argument, you do that to yourself everytime you open your mouth.

Whats next - HAARP?

To bring it back on topic since you guys like to derail when called out -

Either support your claims with supporting documentation we can all see, or go to bed would you please.

Source
Hamas targted the bus -

Al-Qassam Brigades' operations during the last Forty-Eight hours:

First: Targeting a bus was traveling between the Zionist military sites on the strip border, east of Gaza City, at around three o'clock on Thursday, 07.04.2011, ​​near the so-called "Kfar Saad," the bus was passing in the way of tanks and artillery.

Source
Hamas used a guided anti tnak missile on that bus -

Hamas takes responsibility

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus. The Brigades said the attack came in reponse to Israel's killing of three of its members last week.

Source
Source" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source
Hamas took credit for the attack -

Hamas takes responsibility

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus.

Source
Source
Hamas says its a schoolbus -

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus.

See what I did there?

I made accusations - check
I supplied source to verify - check
I cited my sources - check
I quoted my sources after the claims - check

This is what you guys have done -
Accidental
False Flag
Training bus
Hamass controlled by Mossad
Israeli killing more peple than palestinians kill
conflicting reports
staged crime scene

No supporting sources, no links we can go check and verify, nothing to folow up on.

We are still waiting for BIB to give us the link to his source where he states the Hamas website states the attack was accidental, and that the bus was hit with a mortar - He has failed to do this

We are still waiting for Xeuch to provide us with a link and source to his claims the bus is a training bus, and the entire incident is a training exercise / digital false flag etc.

I find it not surprisingly hypocritical of you to preach to other about being open minded an unbiased, when you fail to take your own advice.

Ya know.. it doesnt really matter.. 70+ pages here, 30+ in a similar thread, and you guys keep hgrasping at straws. You need t take a step back and see just how ridiculous you guys look by making claims and not supporting them, all based on your hatred for Israel.

Maybe you werent looking for the terms unbiased and open minded. I think you might have meant to say do as I say and not as I do.

Guys have fun with your unprovable hypotheticals.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Egypt to open border crossing with Gaza - ATS Thread

By the way, I called this two weeks ago right here in this thread, after my own personal sources (non-Internet) informed me the Israeli Ambassador to Egypt had been recalled to Israel for consultations after being informed of the likelihood of the border being opened by the Interim Egyptian Government.

I would just like to point that out, as not only is it absurd to think an investigation into the school bus incident could be properly conducted and concluded within three weeks time, it's even more absurd to imagine it can all be done with "internet sources'.

Some would say that those rushing to such conclusions not only are not realistically objective but it is a strong political bias that would lead them to making such rash proclomations.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Sure you need to supply sources for your credentials if you wish to use alleged experinece as a means to establish your self as an 'expert' or 'authority' pertaining to matters of procedure and protocol when investigation crimes.

Anyone can claim anything on the Internet and often do.

The only crimes solved with Internet Sources are cyber crimes, and this suspicious school bus attack is not a cyber crime.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


So what you are saying is you lied when you tell people they should be unbiased and open minded?

check

Israel can still close the border if Egypt allows Weapons in. I wouldnt count your chickens until they are hatched. Hamas has a golden opprotunity to help the people who elected them.

My money is on them blowing it, because they arent concerned about the Palestinains, but how many civilian Israelis they can kill.

Like the 16 year old in the intentional guided anti tank missile attack on the school bus.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Sure you need to supply sources for your credentials if you wich to use alleged experinece as a means to establish your self as an 'expert' or 'authority' pertaining to matters of procedure and protocol when investigation crimes.

Anyone can claim anything on the Internet and often do.

The only crimes solved with Internet Sources are cyber crimes, and this suspicious school bus attack is not a cyber crime.

Thanks.

I see the circular arguments and obfuscation reigns supreme with you guys.

Ill supply my credientials when you guys supply verifiable sources to back the lies you guys claim as truth. See my list a few posts up and get back to me when you are done.

Provided you can ever get around to backing up your statements.

With that ladies and gents, lets let Proto, BIB and Xcheu have their privacy...

Ahab has to go hunt their whales...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


As I said, the same can be said about both sides of the debate.

Non of us will ever reach true objectivity, or at least non of the people who are debating this so fervently. I've never denied the fact I'm subjective in this matter, or any other, but that's not to say that I blindly follow whatever narrative that is most pro Israeli.

The facts I've presented have been more than a contribution to this "investigation"... You've based all your theories on 5 photos taken at different angles, until the point I provided videos showing the whole scene, you've been guessing and debating the location, until the point I've pinpointed the exact location.

Why would you, then, say it would be a miracle for me to be reasonable and unbiased?

With respect,
Eliad.

and what if our point A pic is really point B

point B could be showing an upward slope
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/25b47d22af19.jpg[/atsimg]


point A could be showing a downward slope
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/24ea64fb54fb.jpg[/atsimg]


might explain the oil slick descrepancies.

but still not the side equipment.

my false flag meter is now at level two and climbing

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5f30340371f1.jpg[/atsimg] [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5f30340371f1.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by xuenchen

4-12-2011 Hamas denies because "is to far away from populated area"

I think the denial is that it was a school bus, not that the bus was hit.. Meaning they know they hit it, they just thought it was a bus full of soldiers... There's no denial of the fact that they shot at the bus, so it was hit by Hamas, but had no children on it?

and this report 3 days earlier 4-9-2011

Okay, so they're saying they shot a bus, but didn't think it would be full of children..

MY problem is the CONFLICTING reports as well as the time of attack conflict.

But non of these conflicting reports are saying anything other than Hamas shot that rocket at a bus, even Hamas itself admits it, so what's the point? What is it exactly that you think was faked? The attack itself or the fact that there were children aboard the bus?

perhaps THAT thing dosn't work as good as reported ??? perhaps the false flag was actually directed on THAT thing performing up to par, to justify added FUNDING ??

Wouldn't Hamas be quick to announce that they didn't fire a rocket at a bus but rather that it was a stray mortar round?

IS Nahal Oz heavily populated ?

Around 350 people according to Hebrew wiki.. No military families as most of the guys that serve there are 18-21.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by xuenchen


Heh false flag meter

Why don't you watch the videos and observe the scene yourself, see what you can come up with.. It's on 72 or something..

reply to post by Eliad

IS Nahal Oz heavily populated ?

Around 350 people according to Hebrew wiki.. No military families as most of the guys that serve there are 18-21.

So why was the school bus coming from there?
It had reportedly just dropped off lids minutes before

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Heh false flag meter

Why don't you watch the videos and observe the scene yourself, see what you can come up with.. It's on 72 or something..

What I found about the video was the driver..
We've seen pics of him being restrained/helped by two policeman..
He is supposed to be injured yet in the video we see him walking around with no apparent injuries while talking on his mobile..

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I wouldn't bother to reply to that one..
It's always the same BS where it's everyone else not answering and they're perfect little Dick Traceys..

reply to post by Eliad


In reality you have no idea what all I have based my theories on. I doubt you could even accurately reflect my theories even if you were to honestly try, let alone all the varied sources for them.

I will say that no, they have only little to do with the photographic evidence.

However it would be a false assumption that people who are on the quest for truth care in a political sense as to where that truth leads.

The truth is honestly investigating conspiracies requires for a level of emotional detachment few people can master.

However having said that, it becomes much easier to pretend that objective investigators are biased when those debating them continually interject the politics of a nation like Israel into the debate, tainting what would otherwise be a purely 'fact finding' mission with a wide variety of often false emotionally laden dogmas intended to distract and obstruct such unbiased and objective investigations and conversations from occuring.

Soliciting and then illiciting personal political opinions on what then is essentially off topic chit chat, to use as a means to attempt to taint people's objectivety is just that.

Such people fool few to no one, save themselves with such transparent tactics and methods.

Further they do end up demonstrating a strong and hard to dismiss bias when combined with the typically dim view they espouse of honest and objective people on the quest for truth.

I am well enough informed to have known that the Gaza border was going to be opened two weeks before happening and reported to the press.

I wouldn't pretend you have any idea what my sources are.

Thanks.