Holocaust Museum Suspect Was a 9/11 "Truther"

Originally posted by OpusMarkII
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

well said , and it's unfortunate the there are elements on the 911 truth movement who are white supremacist , and there are also elements the believe in shape shifting reptiods, the greater majority are neither , they infact do no want to see the rise of a other man like Hitler or Ungle Joe .

Actually I have to be honest, when I made my first post I didn't know who this guy was.

I honestly admire this man, he has principals and convictions.

Now as far as the White Supremist thing...nah, not my cup of tea...

But any guy who has the stones to invade the Federal Reserve in Washington D.C. to terroize them for the afternoon...well, hey...lunch is on me!

Where I differ with people like this, is if you stand for wanting the corruption out of government here in the U.S. I don't care if you are a black, Philipino, Muslim, Lesbian, with Aides!

You are alright in my book!

The corruption is so institutionalized, I don't know if it can ever be stopped.

Call me crazy, foolish, or just a dumb romantic, but to the person who really wants to go out there and put it all on the line, because they know its wrong and is never going to change...

Well, I give someone like that a lot of credit.

We all sit around complaining about sheeple here on ATS, which is really just us sheeple baaaaaahing about the fact we dislike being sheep while we chew our cud.

This guy, well...not a sheeple!

Crazy, a bit off, wrong to take an innocent life, but not a sheeple.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Crazy, a bit off, wrong to take an innocent life, but not a sheeple.

What constitutes as a sheeple to you? This guy had a lot of insane beliefs that were supported by no evidence whatsoever. He only fiercely believed in them because they catered to his psychotic racism.

[edit on 10-6-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Great just great!!!

Now I have to hear from my family and everyone I know that all of us truthers are just nutjobs waiting to shoot someone up.

Seriously there is an obvious agenda here by the media. If you can't see it than, well I feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Crazy, a bit off, wrong to take an innocent life, but not a sheeple.

What constitutes as a sheeple to you? This guy had a lot of insane beliefs that were supported by no evidence whatsoever. He only fiercely believed in them because they catered to his psychotic racism.

[edit on 10-6-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Show me a man who does not think he is supperior to a woman, show me a woman who does not think she is supperior to a man, show me a black who doesn't think they are supperior to a white, or an oriental who doesn't think they are supperior to a black, or an arab that doesn't think they are superior to an Indian and I will show you a liar.

Validation is part of human nature, and we are all closet bigots, most of those have the compassion and empathy and good sense not to succumb to base temptations based on the purely physical.

The duality of the human mind is such that even as we sometimes have those kinds of prejudicial thoughts that aren't as much about hating someone as they are loving ourselves just a little bit more than someone else that I think anyone who hasn't struggled with that temptation at some point, in some way is just flat out in denial.

Racism is wrong, sexism is wrong, but lets face it, how many people join a voluntary group and then claim superiority. I am Christian, I am better than a Muslim, I am a Mason they are better than Christians, I am a Rocker they are better than Country fans, I am a Lover they are better than fighters, etc., etc.,

People are herd creatures for the most part, they join a herd for a reason, the primary reason is social but it also entails validation and absolution which is about being right.

I am right to be a Rocker you are wrong to like Country!

It is my personal belief that the government is so entrenched with corruption that it can not be changed through the standing political process.

It will take some type of radical act to free the government from it's ever deepening and widening road towards absolute tyranny.

In my younger days before the wife and the kids...I was a rebel, now I sit home at nights remembering what it was like to be young, but I worry about my children and the world they are going to face.

None of us are innocents.

My tax dollars fund wars that kill people who have never done a thing to deserve to die or suffer a lifetime of horrendous scars and loss and wounds.

I personally am ashamed of that, and I won't condemn other people to death just because they happen to be geographically, ethnically or spiritually related to someone who committed a haneous act of violence.

I regret the loss of any human life, and I sure don't mean to minimize the importance of the man who lost his or the value of it.

What I am trying to stress is two things.

One is that as this orchestrated economic crisis continues on and more and more unconstitutional laws are passed, old men especially, who remember what it was like to not have to pee in a cup to get a job, and that the government didn't try to legislate their every move and aspect of their lives are likely to break at the seams like this guy did.

Two is that might not be a bad thing, because unless some people start acting out and up, well, I wouldn't want to have to live in the world my children will be 20 years from now that's for sure.

I am truly sorry if I offended you, and I can't stress enough I don't agree with many things about this man.

Back in 1981 though he did a very courageous and principaled thing against a very corrupt institution that even the government can't control...the Federal Reserve.

That took guts, the kind of guts Ron Paul is trying to show in his Audit the Fed Bill.

I think a lot of people are going to be dying tragic deaths in this world turned upside down over the course of the next few years.

I really hope I am wrong.

People need to stand up and stand for something, and you know if we all could actually get beyond our differences, to unite truly against the things that are in no one's interest, it wouldn't have to entail violence.

People are lazy, stupid, complacent, self absorbed and selfish though, and whether you agree or not, it's why we are all pretty much suffering todays circumstances in the world.

The majority has allowed the minority to opperate with near impunity over us.

This was a guy who said enough!

I respect that, and if I ever write the book you are so sure has such low standards, I will understand if you choose not to read it.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Actually I have to be honest, when I made my first post I didn't know who this guy was.

I honestly admire this man, he has principals and convictions.

Principles and convictions?

What manner of 'principles and convictions' lead a man to gun down an innocent security guard?

Are you serious?

I don't care what that guy did to the fed. One act of heroism does not make up for an act of murder. If he wanted to shake up the holocaust story, there were a million other ways he could have gone about doing it. Shooting up a museum was NOT a 'principled' decision.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Validation is part of human nature, and we are all closet bigots,

There’s a huge difference between secretly having superiority beliefs and actually thinking that the holocaust didn’t happen and that Jews are trying to destroy your country and that shooting an innocent man at a holocaust museum is going to help further your cause. This man was a nut who deserves no support.

None of us are innocents.

So? That means that we shouldn’t judge others ever? That means that we should not only not judge murders but support them as well?

This was a guy who said enough!

There were plenty of ways for him to convey his outrage that did not involve killing someone who had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that outrage. There is nothing justifiable or rational about what he did.

This guy was a "sheeple", he was just a different breed of sheeple.




[edit on 10-6-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This random killing only serves to discredit our movement and maginalize us as extremists and even terrorists. It does nothing to further the noble goals that you speak of, infact it accomplishes the opposite. We as truthers need to denounce these kinds of actions and distance ourselves from racist freaks if we are to retain our morals and appeal to the masses.

Instead of blowing peoples brains out, we should be supporting peaceful measures like Ron Pauls Audit the Fed bill. Violence should be defensive in nature only if this movement is ever to become mainstream.

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Actually I have to be honest, when I made my first post I didn't know who this guy was.

I honestly admire this man, he has principals and convictions.

Principles and convictions?

What manner of 'principles and convictions' lead a man to gun down an innocent security guard?

Are you serious?

I don't care what that guy did to the fed. One act of heroism does not make up for an act of murder. If he wanted to shake up the holocaust story, there were a million other ways he could have gone about doing it. Shooting up a museum was NOT a 'principled' decision.

There is only so many times I can state that I am against the taking of a life and racism, but since I made a highly controversial statement I shall persevere to continue to be indulgent to that.

The principal is taking some kind of real action.

Will the two trillion dollars in bailouts that will likely lead to hyper infaltion for a United States that has actually been in Bankruptcy since 1931 help?

Probably not.

Will it hurt terribly, probably based on history.

Yet it was an action. An attempt to do something.

What this man did was an attempt to do something.

Now honestly ask yourself this, you are on ATS for one of two reasons. You either think that there is something wrong with the world you aren't getting the whole story on...

Or you think the world is so great, that it's silly for people to suggest anything is wrong.

Now I am going to assume the former and not the latter and say simply this.

What good is knowledge when you don't make it actionable.

For instance I won't shop at Wal-Mart because I know with all the foreign made products they sell it hurts the economy.

That's a kind of passive action.

Yet most people even if you can get them to agree with 'yes' it does hurt the economy they are still going to go shop at Wal-Mart...'it's the only place close'...it's the only place I can afford...it's the only place that has some of the stuff I need...

People know there is a problem, most people even suspect to a certain degree their own behaviors and habits are part of the problem...

Yet most people won't do one thing, or make one sacrifice...like drive an extra five miles, and pay an extra 23 cents to get a shovel at a mom and pop hardware store.

They want the other person to do it, they will applaud the other person who will do it, they just won't do it themselves.

If we all started taking real responsibility for the world we live in, and the real impact of our every day actions...

chances are a man like this would never be compelled to commit such a haneous crime...

Honestly when you look at how simple some of the problems are, and how complicated people make fixing them through laziness, inatentiveness, selfishness, and vanity...

This guy might have been the sane one in the bunch.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


There is only so many times I can state that I am against the taking of a life and racism, but since I made a highly controversial statement I shall persevere to continue to be indulgent to that.

The principal is taking some kind of real action.

While I agree with the majority of your points, and understand the value of taking action, what this man did was psychopathic.

On top of that, he has managed to do a disservice to the 9/11 truth movement, the anti-holocaust movement and in general all of those who would rise up against the government. He did that by acting recklessly and taking an innocent's life. Whatever mark he attempted to make will be forever marred by his actions, and instead of being remembered as a champion of truth, he will be remembered as the murderer he is.

Events like this only make it that much harder for individuals to question or act against an oppressive government, as the government's oppression becomes justified by the masses who seek security from incidents such as this one. You can expect a general tightening of security (and as a result loss of freedoms) around Washington due to this incident.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

 

 

wow... that slap was unnecessarily harsh... i don't know what i did to deserve that

This thread is about a man who is angry and takes out that anger on his perceived enemy... not the most effect means available but he got off his can and did something. I was suggesting a more positive alternative... which gets flushed down the drain.

All i did was post "I hear you PPT

" and followed with an embedded youtube video clip from the movie Network, where Peter Finch gives a piercing rant on the ills of our society and then tells everyone to go open their windows and stick their heads out and yell "I am mad as hell and I am NOT going to take it anymore!"

Now tell me how that is off topic?

Sure maybe the act itself doesn't accomplish much... but it's a step in the right direction... no?

It's going to be hard getting that message across after the pile of doo doo I stepped in, but hey, they told me there would be days like this!

Was it action, was it reaction?

We live in a society where we are conditioned not to react to things that often are not in our individual or collective best interest.

Action that is well thought out, is almost impossible because of the way the deck is stacked.

Clearly this man was reacting, but the big point I am trying to make is why was he reacting, what was he really reacting too.

The immediate thought that comes to mind is the obvious, a racial motivation...

But why now at the end of his life does a man who 28 years ago carried out a mock violence attack that harmed no one to make an important statement now committs a violent act after 82 years on the planet...

That's my point, it's the direction that society is taking right now, these insane economic conditions, the corruption in the government, the lies that are being told to us, the fact that "Change" and "Hope" are catch phrases come election time, but the only thing that really keeps changing is hope keeps dwindling.

We could pin this all on the negative fact the man is a racist, but that aside clearly he has a deep concern for the integrity of our government and instution that goes well beyond just his racial views.

Can people see the forest for the trees.

Do people know that as they react to my incindiary statement that what they are doing is reacting, reacting to the obvious of what's on the surface.

Still waters run deep though, and this man was still for a very long time before raising to action again.

I think what is defeating this nation are the knee jerk reactions based on black and whites, while the whole range of grays that really drive these issues go overlooked as they vent in their own non-violent but similiarly counter productive ways by expressing outrage and fear and condemnation but nary a real question or a thought as to what else is going on and just how and when it might effect them.

It doesn't need to affect people though, if they can just learn to not react on that base level and start rationally understanding if you want to upgrade the quality of your life, then you better upgrade the quality of your questions.

It's been 8 years almost since 9-11 not one suspect charged, not one person brought into a U.S. Court, and trillions of dollars spent on wars that only encite terrorism not stop it, and a pittance spent on an investigation that yielded not so much as one charge being officially leveled in a court of law.

reply to post by LiquidMirage
Most view truthers as loony extremist?? Does that include high ranking military officials, architects, engineers,pilots, scientist and professors? Whats wrong with demanding truth from a obvious bulls#it lie!

To compare this disturbed man to most truthers is ridiculous, Its like saying all christians are racist because of the KKK! Or all muslims are bomb throwers because of the extremist!

to OP:

And here we go... throw out the baby with the bath water.
FIY, there are also many 'troofers' who do not for a moment believe the official fairy tale of cave dwelling jihadi's performing such a massive military strike behind enemy lines,
but who, with the same intelligence and open mind, do not deny the possibility of planted extremists or anti-semites within 'the movement'.

Just because some American will use everything he can find to wage a war on Iraq doesn't mean all Americans hate Iragi's.

Same with 9-11 Truth. There are many out there who are not anti-semetic, so our generalization is nothing but an indicator of your own black & white thinking.

It's not just the u.s. media's equating-spin '911 truther = domestic terrorist' there is also the manipulation of perceived age that factors into this what appears to be an opportune smear piece;

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/71337b7194db.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


There is only so many times I can state that I am against the taking of a life and racism, but since I made a highly controversial statement I shall persevere to continue to be indulgent to that.

The principal is taking some kind of real action.

While I agree with the majority of your points, and understand the value of taking action, what this man did was psychopathic.

On top of that, he has managed to do a disservice to the 9/11 truth movement, the anti-holocaust movement and in general all of those who would rise up against the government. He did that by acting recklessly and taking an innocent's life. Whatever mark he attempted to make will be forever marred by his actions, and instead of being remembered as a champion of truth, he will be remembered as the murderer he is.

Events like this only make it that much harder for individuals to question or act against an oppressive government, as the government's oppression becomes justified by the masses who seek security from incidents such as this one. You can expect a general tightening of security (and as a result loss of freedoms) around Washington due to this incident.

That's a considered but not well considered statement.

The truth can't be murdered, it can be hidden, it can be deluded but it can't be killed.

The truth of 9-11 exists, and it's rediculous to cross reference the 9-11 truth movement with the Hollucust Museum.

Now personally I think 9-11 was a MOSSAD and CIA Operation, they are the only ones with that kind of sophistication who could have accomplished it.

I think it's cute that people want to believe a bunch of cave dwellers did it, but hey people do cute things.

Yet this man's actions as insane as they were are actions. It was insane to attack Afghanistan over an alleged plot carried out by Saudis, it was insane to attack Iraq over alleged weapons of mass destruction, it was insane to borrow the money to do it from China.

The world is full of Insanity and you know what, Truthers are considered to be insane!

I know I am crazy, I like being crazy though, I am not flying planes in to buildings, or shooting security gaurds, and don't plan on doing so ever if at all possible.

As a life long Rock and Roll Drummer I actually have a constiutional duty to be crazy!

The point is that if people really imagine that the 9-11 movement is picking up steam...

It's not, what is picking up steam, is how to keep using 9-11 to single differing groups out for persecution and labelling.

There is a clock, and the clock runs out eventually when everyone who knows who shot Kennedy takes the secret to their grave.

It's the same thing with 9-11.

The Powers that Be will figure out how to put the Truth Movement to good use. That's why they are the Powers that Be, they are one step ahead of the flock. They will always get the best of you...

When you play the game by their rules.

This man did not play by their rules...

That's what I admire, I will state again, violence and racism is deplorable, stepping outside of the box to do something...

Whether it helped our hurt is frankly more than you or I has done.

The Government isn't going to form a self help group 12 step program to becoming honest and corruption free.

The Government is in the process of looting the treasury which is the last act of any government.

There will be a new Power that Be Goverment and they will likely use anything they can to their advantage to set it up, likt coming out with a new 'truth' about 9-11 that fits their agenda.

I am not saying don't play by the rules, I am not saying break the law, I am saying that it is the rules that have the world in the state that they are in, and my Senators and Congressmen sure don't consider a thing I say and I do write them, and they write me back saying how excited they know I am that they intend doing the opposite.

That's the system and the rules people are relying on for "Change" and "hope".

Good luck!

The man got off his butt and did something good bad or ugly, and anyone who thinks that hurts the truth movement is silly, because you can't murder the truth, you can only hide it and twist it.

The truth has a life of it's own.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Validation is part of human nature, and we are all closet bigots,

There’s a huge difference between secretly having superiority beliefs and actually thinking that the holocaust didn’t happen and that Jews are trying to destroy your country and that shooting an innocent man at a holocaust museum is going to help further your cause. This man was a nut who deserves no support.

None of us are innocents.

So? That means that we shouldn’t judge others ever? That means that we should not only not judge murders but support them as well?

This was a guy who said enough!

There were plenty of ways for him to convey his outrage that did not involve killing someone who had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that outrage. There is nothing justifiable or rational about what he did.

This guy was a "sheeple", he was just a different breed of sheeple.




[edit on 10-6-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Of course the Hollocust happened but it was not all about Jews and there were politics involved that are obscured today that in part are more dangerous to obscure than it is to deny that the hollocust happened.

People who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it and a lot of what has been exagerated about the hollocust and the real political machinations that truly led to it, that are covered up and so taboo to talk about it does in fact lead to an evironment where this level of frustration becomes evident in a human being.

That's the real danger in covering up the real history. I won't trifle you with my version of real history, but if you ever really want to know about all the complex factors that went in to the hollocust start back in 1916 with the New York Times archives online. They are free to read, and you can find out a lot about what happened that is key to understanding it, starting with the year before the U.S. got in to World War I, and then follow the politics of Europe and the Balfour Agreement closely over the next 16 or 18 years and what really went on and you will have a much better context of the Hollocust, where Slavs, not Jews died at twice the rate. Gypsies, homosexuals, dissidents of the state all met the same fate. The Hollocust is about as uniquely Jewish as Christmas and Santa Clause are, and frankly there is a real danger in pretending why it happened, and how it happened, and to what extent it happened for political reasons.

Unlike you and I, this man was actually old enough to have witnessed some of these events first hand.

I can tell you from my own experience here on ATS I have been asked for sources on History I hve witnessed first hand, and had to go surfing the Internet to find them, because the people asking were too young to have been alive when they happened and really didn't know such things had happened.

Obviously we all do judge people, in fact humans are highly judgemental creatures, but because of the duality of the human mind we often hold others to loftier standards and harsher condemnations than we hold ourselves.

I don't think anyone human being is beyond redemption, and I think it behooves all of humanity to try to redeem everyone, though we make scant little effort to do so.

I tend not to judge others too harshly even though my words might seem harsh at times they are spoken with empathy, because I am not perfect!

As a less than perfect person, I can't in good conscience claim to be a moral authority, to that extent that I can condemn any person, and I would never even begin to think about it, until I walked in that persons moccassins for a good long while to try to understand what compelled them to do what they did.

It might not lead to the fun, bust a gut, get all red in the face drama so many bored human beings looking for validation and attention are so fond of, but it does lead to the glimpses of things that could actually make the world a better place through understanding better what causes the world to be not a better place, versus simply just demanding that the world should be a better place.

The man was compelled to act, and this man has been acting on what compells him for a very long time.

If you think it was racism that caused him to invade the Federal Reserve I disagree.

I don't disagree he was a racist, I don't disagree racsim is wrong, I don't disagree violence is wrong, I am saying there is always a lot more than what's on the surface, and what in my humble oppinion all you are doing is looking at the surface issues.

End result, you slap a bandaid on it, but what's really causing the problem underneath needs a whole lot more, but it has to be diagnosed first.

Which of course is why your Medical doctor will not scream "You have cancer, oh my G-d your going to die, and throws down his charts and runs crying and screaming from the room".

The nation now more than ever needs people who can respond versus react.

Reactions are based on emotional impulses.

Responses are based on an exhausting unearthing of the facts and a considered review.

That's interesting, I thought he was an average Republican.

Originally posted by LiquidMirage
This confirms exactly what I have known all along about the 911 “truth” movement that constantly spews anti Jew and anti American hate and bigotry.

Yep definitely sounds like the average Republican.

Loony extremism? Every group takes things too far. Obviously the GOP has a new head man with James W. von Brunn, maybe he can co-host with Limbaugh?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Of course the Hollocust happened but it was not all about Jews

This man wasn’t a revisionist; he was a holocaust denier who supported Hitler.

Unlike you and I, this man was actually old enough to have witnessed some of these events first hand.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic; plenty of people his age viewed the same things and completely disagree with his views and actions.

I don't think anyone human being is beyond redemption

Neither do I. That doesn’t mean that their past transgression simply wash away though, and this man doesn’t seem like he wanted redemption. This man had no redeeming qualities. He was a racist psychopath who believed in a host of neo-nazi nonsense instead of being a true independent thinker.

In related news, Von Brunn was also fond of Cheeze-Its.

Cheeze-Its are evil, and if you eat them you are an Arab terrorist who hates America.

News at 11.