A question for our European and Aussie friends...Do you regret giving up your right to own firearms?

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
reply to post by SiONiX

 

Ok everybody, so far, has danced around this so I'll ask the question. Just how many in your population are 'illegal aliens'. In the US, the statistics are higher for murder and mayhem in our pandered-to illegal population. Our citizens are not the problem. Its those who are of the illegal criminal element that have driven up the statistics on death and murder by firearms in our country. Our government chooses to do nothing to remedy this situation. Our politicians use it against us, as well as other countries. to show that our nation \is stupid and foolish to allow the rest of us who are law abiding to relinquish our constitutional rights. Germany has its borders and illegal problem prety much under control, but if in the future, you don't watch your politicians, you will also have statistics that will bother you.

Zindo

I'm hearing classic Problem-Reaction-Solution my friend. Government allow a problem, you the honest law abiding citizen are seeing/feeling the affects of this problem, and the solution. Lets control 'You' the easy target being accountable citizen by making you pay for their contrived immigration problem through higher taxes and removing you liberties in the name of fixing this problem?

The German border issue is pretty much sorted (as you say) in that they all go straight through Germany then France (well can you blame them:lolthen on to Blighty to fill their boots with all our EU enforced handouts at 'we' the tax payers expense. Then when it all goes wrong 'we' pay much like I've described above in the Problem-Reaction-Solution.

I would just like to point out that I welcome anyone that pays their way when they arrive and don't add to my daily misery of living in this S*** Whole of a country!

It just amazes me how Americans use the excuse of a ''possible Martial Law'' scenario whereby they have to defend their homes from their own Government to justify owning a gun ......... priceless!

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
Our citizens are not the problem. Its those who are of the illegal criminal element that have driven up the statistics on death and murder by firearms in our country.

Uhhh...actually that is not true. Illegal aliens do have a higher rate of crime. However 51% of all murders in the US are perpetrated by African Americans (13% of our population).

reply to post by Sonya610



As a whole, quite true. But, if you live in the southwest or left coast its a whole differant ball game. Regional ethnic problems have always skewed the stats but the biggest problem on the horizon is the ilegals. One hospital or clinic every week is closing in the southwest because of bankruptcy. The government mandate of these hospitals and clinics to treat any and all who arive there is causing big problems. When you have to drive 200 miles to find medical treatment, thats unacceptable. Its a growing problem and its only going to get more intense! Many of the problems involved are gun related shootouts between the gangs. Many brought over from the Mexican side.

Zindo


[edit on 10/28/2008 by ZindoDoone]

reply to post by ZindoDoone


So those bad evil criminal aliens bring their guns with them when they enter the US? What do you think where they come from? As far as I understand, everybody can buy a gun and even carry them out in the public.

I think you would agree that most/all of those illegal immigrants buy weapons on the black market. So where are those weapons from? Exactly. From those citizens that can obtain guns through the pretty loose laws you have and "lose them" (*cough*) and finally they and up on the black market.

It's not a matter of "which demographic group kills most?", it's a matter of "how many kills are there alltogether". And that was exactly what I presented, the kills are very low, including all social groups including illegal immigrants.

If the US wanted to have less criminal immigrants, than the best step would be to keep those damn things away from normal citizens without hunter license, gun club license etc.
Because that's where they get those weapons from. This way would be the most effective to prevent such crimes, if you don't want to build a wall along the border.

//EDIT to add:

I watched the 20:00 news today and saw that a KID was accidently shot at a weapon fair? WTF is this? A weapon fair? With uzis?? For hunting sure. But why the hell are little children allowed there? Its perverted enough to have such a fair with assault weapons for normal citizens, but for children? That's insane....

[edit on 28.10.2008 by SiONiX]

reply to post by SiONiX


NO. What I said is that Germany does NOT have the problems we have because they are smart enough to deal with them. Our politicians DON"T!!!
But, that said there is NO logical reason for us to have the rights, we cherish, taken away from us by the fear that maybe it will get worse. Our constitution states infaticaly that its not the governments mandate to dictate to us. Its our RIGHT to dictate to them!!!

Zindo

Originally posted by SiONiX
As far as I understand, everybody can buy a gun and even carry them out in the public.

Uhhh...that is not at all the. Most states only allow adults to purchase firearms, and many states make it virtually impossible to carry them in public. Many states do have conceiled carry permits but that requires an FBI background check that takes months to complete.

The shootings and crimes involving firearms involve people that cannot own them legally anyways (i.e. underage or convicted felons).

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
Our citizens are not the problem. Its those who are of the illegal criminal element that have driven up the statistics on death and murder by firearms in our country.

Uhhh...actually that is not true. Illegal aliens do have a higher rate of crime. However 51% of all murders in the US are perpetrated by African Americans (13% of our population).

That is sobering, Sonya

Disturbing

Worth quoting (as I have) don't you think ?

Wonder how many realise this is the situation in the US ?

Does the media in the US make citizens aware of this statistic ?

Now that we don't have easily accesible guns in Australia, kids don't grow up expecting to be able to own a gun. So nobody really misses them at all.

One of the problems with everyone having guns in their house is that they use them against each other. When you have a fight with your nieghbours, or wife, or parents it is too easy in the heat of the moment to grab that gun and shoot someone. It escalates the problem from nothing to murder in a second.

We don't fear that the government can ever impose martial law, because the military are just regular people, who will protect their families long before they protect their government. Its a pity the US can't trust their own military.

reply to post by Sloth


For me its not as much the military as it is the scores of violent and opportunistic criminals we have here....and also the police.


Thats right, I said it. I dont trust the police to protect anyone or anything, and truthfully I think the police and the Blackwater types are the ones who are our real enemies to be feared.

Military people by and large are doing what they consider to be a patriotic duty, but I dont believe these people would willfully turn against American citizens.

Now the cops however, they have proven time and again that they have no issue with roughing up people, armed or unarmed. And most of them I believe, if given the chance, would abuse their little authority to no end and gladly do it.

Anyway, to possibly lighten up discussion for a brief moment

Re: guns and Australia:

Several years ago, after a spate of break-ins in our area, I heard
noises in the back-yard

called the police

Surprisingly, they arrived quite swiftly

I didn't hear the police car draw up outside .. jumped out of my skin
when someone pounded on the front door (should mention, the front of our house had an enclosed courtyard with high brick wall. Entry was through a tall gate, up a path and onto porch. All had been traversed silently).

After a little bit of 'who's there? ' I opened the door. There stood a uniformed police officer.

Told him what I'd heard and where. Swiftest way to to investigate the backyard was through the house, but he asked if there was another means of accessing the back yard.

I told him we could go through the front courtyard and then along a narrow paved pathway which ran from front to rear of the property.

He told me to lead the way. I did so. It was very dark on that side of the house.

When we reached the start of the side pathway, the police officer took the lead, followed by myself with my young son close behind me.

At the far end of the pathway there was a closed gate.

As the police officer was struggling to silently open that gate, I saw a huge shadow rear up in front of a garden shed at the rear of the backyard.

Adrenaline pumped through me .. I nearly lost my voice. All I could do was gurgle and point frantically at the shadow, which was roughly human-shaped and seemed to be ten feet tall !

'Look .. look .. someone's there ! ' I gasped (truly gasped). I was terrified

The police officer seemed to 'catch' my adrenaline rush and alarm.

He tried to push through the gate --- but he was pretty well upholstered/bulky

Police officer's bulk got jammed between the gate and the side of the house

He was struggling hard --- to get his gun out of his side holster (Australian police gun holsters at that time (at least in Queensland) had a flap over the top of the holster with a big snap button thing, I'm almost sure)

whatever the case, the police officer was struggling both to free himself from the enclosed space AND to free his gun from the holster

all happened in a few seconds

He finally released his gun from the holster --- and then, breathing hard, hissed something about his 'partner' or 'mate'

I didn't understand

the shadow had been moving in what looked like a forward direction though all of this .. in other words appeared to be moving towards us

The police officer stopped struggling and called out to the shadow

??? they knew each other ? I was stunned

and the 'shadow' spoke back

Then the police officer turned to me .. exasperated, scathing ... and had to tell me twice before I grasped --- that the shadow was his partner

so huge relief for me .. followed immediately by shock, surprise.

I hadn't even realised there were two police officers present

'My' police officer seemed to be taking it out on me, the way people do when they've had a big adrenaline surge.

He was now basically blaming me --- for the fact he'd tried to draw his gun against his own partner ! Kept muttering 'partner, partner' in an aggrieved tone

They did a rudimentary check of the backyard and departed moments later.

Leaving me feeling somehow guilty that one of them had become so flustered and panicked that he'd tried to draw his gun at the sight of his own partner !

I laughed later. And imagined how guilty I would have felt if the officer had actually FIRED on his partner

Was surprised the situation could have evolved as it had.

Why hadn't 'my' officer realised from the outset the shadow could be his partner ?

Why was 'my' officer so vulnerable to the understandable panic of an untrained, scared citizen ?

I mean I had seen the shadow

And I saw it before 'my' officer did

He was too busy trying to fit his rotund body through a normal-sized side gate and had allowed himself to be panicked by my panic and fear

So guns can be dangerous even in the hands of supposedly 'trained professionals'

Lost a bit of confidence in the police that night

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Secondly, the timing of the thread seems based due to the anxiety that's been created by problems with the economy. I actually feel safer in "a hostile and rapidly declining and violent world", knowing the idiot down the street hasn't got an assortment of guns in his house. Yes, he might try and attack me in other ways, but I'm more happy to take my chances pitching my fists against his or even my knife against his knife.

This part of your post shows that you actually have no clue why in uncertain times such as these, the so-called "idiot down the street" feels the need to have weapons.

The first thing I'll say is that it is not to attack you or anyone else. His reasons are most likely defensive in nature. For example, if he is worried enough about what's happening that he has armed himself, he has also probably prepared for the worst in terms of food, fuel and other supplies.

He also realizes that the "idiots up the street" - probably you and your neighbors in this case - have probably not done anything to prepare for things being as rosy as they always have been. And he knows that when you are starving and/or freezing because you didn't, the first thing you'll all think of is to come to his house to try and take his food and supplies (leaving him with nothing for his family).

I am an american and a handgun owner. I'd feel alot more comfortable if you had to go through an intense training course to be able to own any type of firearm, maybe with yearly retraining mandatory to mantain the license. I'd also like if alot more well trained people carried their weapons at all times, we'd all be a little safer.

As far as untrained, hothead idiots carrying guns in public places, I'm not so sure that's a good idea. If we're going to exercise our right to bear arms in this country then the smart, civilized and well trained gentlemen gun owners need to be carrying. As it is now only the police and the criminals carry guns, so the average citizen is in the middle of a war zone at all times, unarmed.

Remember only a psychic cop can stop a crime before it happens. All the nonpsychic cops can do is show up later and take statements and evidence. Your own self defense is totally up to you.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I think it is very funny for people of other countries demand that we give up our "RIGHTS." No thank you very much. The right to bear arms was put into our Constitution to guarantee us the right to fight the Government when it becomes to powerful. Today's times are an indication of the power the government is attaining. They are off course. The People of the United States need to correct this. I care not what the world thinks, if they choose to give up rights that is their problem. I for one will not submit to the government taking my rights.

couldn't have said it better myself..

and video games arent always a negative aspect in life, i knew how to reload, unjam an AR-15 because of Americas Army *a PC game*

i am very safe with my guns, always keep them unloaded and in an armored gun safe. Learning how to treat guns properly and only aiming at what you mean to kill is the best advice.

I would like to keep my gun rights thank you very much, i like going to the range and practicing my accuracy. Plus if one of those illegal immigrants decides its a good idea to break into my house

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Swatman]

Originally posted by Sonya610
Uhhh...that is not at all the. Most states only allow adults to purchase firearms[...]

Only adults? Please don't tell me children/youth can buy them too.... that would be even more insane.

FBI check makes sense to me. But it's by far not enough. Everybody that has a gun should get training before owning one. Before I can drive a car, I have to do +30 hours of theory and +12 hours practice driving. The same should go for a gun imho. You do these trainings to drive a car without hurting other or yourself, wouldn't it make it sense to AT LEAST have every gunowner attend a week full-time training + theory (safety, storage etc.)?

and many states make it virtually impossible to carry them in public. Many states do have conceiled carry permits but that requires an FBI background check that takes months to complete.

That's absolutely fine. Keeps the guns away from the people that legally wanna own one but aren't qualified. Few psychos less on your streets.

I would live in fear too, if I would know that jerk three blocks away has a whole arsenal of assault weapons or other guns.

The shootings and crimes involving firearms involve people that cannot own them legally anyways (i.e. underage or convicted felons).

As I said above, those guns come from legal gunowners that somehow get these things into the black market. The more guns are legally owned, the more end in the black market.

I don't know what else I should say about this. I do know nobody who has a gun. I've never had one in my hand, did never see one with my own eyes except from policemen. And yet I feel safe. We also have illegal immigrants and lots of criminals, but gun-related crimes rarely occur, because those laws make sense.

If the gun laws weren't so loose in the US, much less guns were "in circulation", therefore less thugs would have one. I can't hear this excuse anymore: "We need them to protect us from criminals, if they are banned they still have weapons and we cannot defend ourselves".

That's absolute BS. The more guns the citizens have, the more guns have the illegals, criminals etc., it's as easy as that. It's a doom loop:

More legal guns -> Some of them end in the black-market -> Thugs get weapons and commit crimes -> citizens buy more legal guns -> Some of them end in the blackmarket -> [...]

This cycle can only be broken by getting lesser guns in circulation and strenghten the laws very much.

Guns are for police, military, hunters etc., they do not belong in a normal household. And if sbd. now writes "we need them to overthrow evil gov'ts", well... you're too late. At this state, the streets should be full of people, there should be mass protests against what you're gov't does.

In other countries it works too, why not in the US? Are you such a violent, aggressive people? Do you always have to fear you get robbed, shot/killed by your fellow citizens? (don't even tell me about illegals, above it quotes alone 51% black men)
Kill or get killed is natures law number one, but I am sooo glad that things aren't that bad in my country. I would crap on this right, if I would have my liberties back. While you sit on your guns, your gov't illegally literally rapes countries around the world, and in favor you have to cut your liberties. A day will come, where you sit in your house in front of surveillance camera, every step of yours will be protocolled 24/7/365, telephone/internet/cell phones monitored, and you're grasping your guns because you are free to have this liberty as written on a 220yr old peace of paper that nobody in charge for your country respects.

But hey, as long as you can stick with your guns, everything is fine, isn't it?

Nontheless I respect your opinion, nobody wants to take your rights, but in my opinion gunowners should be trained, checked, and only allowed to take them outta the house in special cases.


[edit on 28.10.2008 by SiONiX]

Originally posted by BlackOps719
reply to post by andy1033

 

Yes the US has a history of violence, but show me one major country that doesnt.

CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the reason why Americans are not going to ever give up gun ownership has little to do with the chance of a revolution or even protection from violent crime.

I read a paper published around the start of the 1900s. (can't remember who wrote it) It was a study of why America has a different "spirit" (can't think of a better word) from Europe. One of the main ideas was that the country was still so new and still unexplored that Americans have developed a sort of pioneer mentality. The people who settled out west in unforgiving, unexplored places had guns. They depended on these guns for food and protection. Thier existence.

These people settled lands had a family and passed down thier beliefs. A major part of those were the ownership of guns. When you were dependent on a tool you would instill the importance of that tool to your children.

Now as time has passed reliance on guns is obviously not as important as it was, but generations of children were told how the gun helped build this country and consider it part of the American "spirit"

Europe unlike America has been settled for generations and generations and never had the need for guns like Americans had in the past. Most Europeans (and Americans) fail to understand the real reason guns are such a part of American culture and why they will NEVER give them up.

Banning guns will probably lead to less gun crime, but crime in general won't go down. That is a much bigger issue dealing socio-economic backgrounds then gun ownership.

On a side note:
Europe has a very warped view of the USA when it comes to guns. I grew up in urban arears in the Northeast, have never fired a gun and have no desire to. Very few of my friends now or the ones I had growing up have either, maybe 3 percent. When guns come up in conversation with friends I have from Europe and I say this they are shocked. Not every single person in America has guns, boots, cowboy hats and a pickup... Just so you know.

and video games arent always a negative aspect in life, i knew how to reload, unjam an AR-15 because of Americas Army *a PC game*

I own guns as well, but I'm wondering if you've had a chance to actually handle an AR-15 and how you did after learning from a game.

Strikes me as a little bit like learning how to swim by reading a book.

Regardless, you more than likely have a leg up vis a vis AR-15s as compared to someone who hasn't researched them at all.


My state, Arizona allows open carry of sidearms.

Kinda funny when I moved out here, sure seemed like a lot of off-duty cops in the grocery stores.
Then I realized that some who carried openly didn't seem to be police officer material physically speaking.

Along with that, there are quite a few who carry concealed and have undergone the required training and obtained the necessary permits.

To my knowledge, so far, Arizona hasn't suffered a shooting in a McDonalds or similar.

And along those same lines, a couple of good ol boys in Texas stopped a shooting in a fast food place several years back.
The coward who entered the restaurant armed to the teeth was quite surprised to find a couple of armed men ready and able.
I believe he surrendered with no injury to anyone.


My favorite story was the idjit who decided to rob a 'cop' bar one night.
He was a touch surprised to see 30-40 guns drawn and pointing in his direction after he'd pulled his weapon and announced that a holdup was in progress.

Granted, this last story has been used in a couple of TV shows, but if I remember right it was reported in the LA Times and noted as a true story.


[edit on 28-10-2008 by Desert Dawg]

Originally posted by drock905
Not every single person in America has guns, boots, cowboy hats and a pickup... Just so you know.

Then again, some of us have two of each....

Originally posted by Portugoal

Originally posted by BlackOps719
reply to post by andy1033

 

Yes the US has a history of violence, but show me one major country that doesnt.

CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really?


Who did all of those pasty white Europeans take the land from when they arrived in Canada? Or are you saying that noone was home when all of those English and French settlers arrived?

Did they peacefully negotiate a fair and peaceful settlement with the indiginous folk or did they take it through other means? Sorry to stray off topic but Im genuinely curious here.