New Law Could Make Gay Jokes Illegal

Originally posted by budski
I firmly believe that an individuals right to live his life without having to listen to mindless jokes about his ethnicity or sexual preference is more important than somebodys right to make that joke.

.

i feel the opposite...that said, shy of someone in your grill spewing verbal abuse, what is the problem?

if you don't like that type of humor, remove yourself from it...
don't tune into certain comedians. police yourself...

you don't like it, don't look. turn the dial.

reply to post by Boondock78


Like I said, if you go to see a comedian, fully aware that there may be offensive content, that's one thing - you're putting yourself in that position.

But why should someone have to listen to it in a bar or restaurant?

I have some sensitivity towards how other people feel about remarks I make in a public place, and whilst I accept that some people are perhaps over sensitive, there is a reason for it.

Gay militants came about precisely because of the behaviour you describe - how would you like your sexuality to be made fun of in a derogatory way on a daily basis?

It's not for an individual to remove himself from a public place because someone else doesn't care about who they offend - the onus must be on the person doing the offending to modify their language or behaviour.
UNLESS as previously stated, they put themselves in that position.

I don't like chris rocks "humour" so I don't watch him and certainly wouldn't go to one of his shows.

Simple really.

On a reality show here in the UK recently, we had a famous comedian berating a gay guy for no other reason than that he's gay.
Nothing too nasty - the usual "faggot" type comments (in the UK, shirtlifter has the same connotations) but most definitely out of order. Read the story here
The really irritating part was that he has since made a big deal of it in his one man shows, citing exactly the same arguments being made on this board.

In his stand up shows, he has a point - you know what you're going to get from him.
But to do it on national prime time TV and then have the gall to try and blame the other party shows a massive disregard for anyone other than himself.
Jim Davidson is well known for his "off colour" stand up comedy - it's filled with homophobic and racist comments - if you pay to go to his show you know exactly what you are going to get - but why should anyone have to listen to this hate outside of paying entry to a theatre?


Here
is a link to one of his stand up shows - this time the targets are americans and women - scenes where he shows his homophobic and racist tendencies have been taken off utube.

Please be aware that should you choose to view this link, it contains strong profanity and remarks of a sexist and xenophobic nature

[edit on 14/11/2007 by budski]

reply to post by budski


I like your new avatar by the way. It summarizes ATS into a single picture

That said, you should know that offensive content is already inappropriate in most circles and at most places. Take this thread for example. I posted an offensive and inappropriate joke. It got removed and I got a warning sticker for it. That should show you that bigotry and racism is already frowned upon in any NORMAL circle of humans. And thats a good thing.

But OVERDOING it is not a good thing. Overdoing it would mean to ban any hint of humour, satire or silliness by law. And this equates thought-policing. I just wish you would put yourself in our shoes for one second and comprehend our concerns. I understand your concerns and I think it was good that my post was removed. But now, consider the other side for a second. Jokes like these are already frowned upon almost everywhere. We dont have to overdo it by enforcing legal action on them. Much of the world is already crazed by the amount of stuff you can be sued for. I recall a guy who inappropriately cracked a joke about blondes in the office rooms. He lost his job.

Originally posted by budski

But why should someone have to listen to it in a bar or restaurant?

I have some sensitivity towards how other people feel about remarks I make in a public place, and whilst I accept that some people are perhaps over sensitive, there is a reason for it.

It's not for an individual to remove himself from a public place because someone else doesn't care about who they offend -

you don't have to listen to it in a restaurant....you are sitting next to me and you don't like the jokes i am cracking with my party of people, you can ask the waitress to seat you somewhere else, or you could ask me to stop at which point i would tell you no...

this sounds like the smoking ban all over again...you have a right to eat and not smell smoke....you have a right to eat and not hear jokes that i think is funny.

MAYBE you just can't handle it and should eat at home..

so i'm supposed to stop telling my stories and my jokes to my friends at my dinner, cause you might not like what you hear...?
yeah, that ain't happening...

you said yourself you are sensative about remarks made in public....maybe you need to reevaluate things....i don't know

i do[/] believe it is up to the person being offended to leave....

guess we just don't agree.

i have enough laws to live by and # i have to do. if i go out to dinner, i damn well am gonna have a good time and that will include my style humor..

reply to post by Skyfloating


I understand your point, and I've made the same one, BUT this legislation won't be thought police.

As I already stated, the article was one UK comedian stating a concern - nowhere in the legislation does it say this, and the amendment to the legislation guarantees that free speech will be protected.
If that amendment is removed, I'll be the first to shout about it.

reply to post by budski


Alright, point made. I will trust that this legislation is not the beginning of something ominous.

In closing I would like to refer you to a british comedy series called "blackadder goes forth", which contains offensive content towards minority groups. Should you have watched it over ever get the chance to watch it, do so, I think you will agree that its hilarious.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I was brought up on blackadder - and yes I know the humour it contains, some funny, some not - but the humour was OK for the time.
What you also have to remember was that it was written in the eighties by a trendy left wing comedian (ben elton) and he could get away with more than the average bear even then - but times change and so do attitudes.

See if you can find bernard manning on google vid or youtube, take a look and if you think there is a place for that kind of humour in the modern world, then I guess we'll never see eye to eye.

reply to post by Boondock78


I guess this is the difference - you think someone else should move over for you because of your behaviour - I think that kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

If someone was doing that to me in a restaurant or a bar, sparks would fly - verbal first, but I would be quite willing to take a bigot (as I see it) to the next level

Originally posted by budski
.

If someone was doing that to me in a restaurant or a bar, sparks would fly - verbal first, but I would be quite willing to take a bigot (as I see it) to the next level

ok chief....don't hurt me


so my behavior of cracking jokes that may offend you as you eat is a big deal but you getting up to make a move is totally acceptable right??

bwuahahahahah

yeah, the issues are yours man.

why should i move over for you? seriously...

who are you?

if i am eating having a conversation, the hell do i care if you don't like it for...?


[edit on 14-11-2007 by Boondock78]

reply to post by Boondock78


hey boondock!
i don't go out of my way to offend anybody, but i do have to wonder also with another commentator here that how can you possibly have a clear cut law on tthis anyway?
certain individuals want the N word banned, but they are the ones mostly using iit. things cant disappear if they are constantly being used. if we really want society to change, then we need a better way than this.
if a law is made to this affect, then i see only law abiders keeping it. so what's the purpose?

reply to post by Boondock78


OK, hypothetical question

I'm in a restaurant, sitting at a table next to you, you're telling your racist and homophobic "jokes". I ask you nicely to moderate your language as I find it offensive.

How do you answer?

Originally posted by budski


OK, hypothetical question

I'm in a restaurant, sitting at a table next to you, you're telling your racist and homophobic "jokes". I ask you nicely to moderate your language as I find it offensive.

How do you answer?

well, i am not a homophobe so lets get that out of the way..
more than likely you would get a 'i don't moderate my language for anyone' and then i'd be back to doing my thing...

if YOU decided to take it to the next level, whatever that is, then i guess thats where we go.


see, here is the thing....just cause you ask me to do something and even ask nice with sugar on top, i don't have to do it....

for all you know i am sitting there with three gay people talling jokes amongst us...
why should you bother to butt your nose in?

like i said, YOU could ask the waitress to seat you away from us, or, you could be a jerk and take it to the 'next level'...

it's on you as i really don't care...


see people have this notion that if they ask or request someone do something, then it should be done.....don't work like that...

if i knew who you were and liked you/respected you, then i would stop but i don't know you.
you could be some big time jerk/drunk/friggin whatever....why should i do what you ask?


howz that?


btw, restaurants usually have room for around 300. you could probably get a seat away from me and all my jokes....

reply to post by Boondock78


That's not the point.

Society has rules for acceptable behaviour that evolve over time - your behaviour would be unacceptable to me and also to many others.
Do you consider yourself to be above the rules of society?

As for taking it to the next level - that's the only language that some people understand, I just happen to be fluent in it, and I would be quite prepared to be militant if you weren't prepared to act as a reasonable human being.

Even if you were sitting with gay friends, that doesn't make it any more acceptable to me or the people I know, and nor is telling racist jokes, which you have already admitted to.

You think you can do and say what you want without regard to others and how they may feel about it?
Well, I say that in todays society that is unacceptable behaviour - so is taking it a step further, but sometimes that step is justified.

Originally posted by budski
Society has rules for acceptable behaviour that evolve over time - your behaviour would be unacceptable to me and also to many others.
Do you consider yourself to be above the rules of society?

As for taking it to the next level - that's the only language that some people understand, I just happen to be fluent in it, and I would be quite prepared to be militant if you weren't prepared to act as a reasonable human being.

yeah, i'm pretty good at the next level so i guess it would be a fun night cause again, i really don't care what you say, do, or think....you the society enforcer?

btw, i do not think i am 'above' society as i have been in troble and been in trouble recently....i do not live by society's rules. i do not always do what is acceptable....i do always do what is acceptable to ME though..
i know full well that some of the things i do and the habits i have could, and have got me in trouble before....

you damn sure are not the speech regulator my friend....don't know what else to tell ya....

if you're ready to bring the noise cause you don't like how someone is talking, then again, you are the one with issues, not me....IMO

also, how do you know my behavior would be unacceptable to many others?
also, what about the many that are NOT offended by it?

whatever man....be the speech poilce..hope ya have fun

[edit on 14-11-2007 by Boondock78]

reply to post by Boondock78


Well, I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

I'm not the speech regulator, but some things ARE offensive, both to me and to others.

I guess if you really don't care about others and about society as a whole there can't be discussion, despite the fact that you belong to that society you see the rules as not applicable to you.

Fair enough - at least you have the integrity to stick to your principles.

Originally posted by budski
I guess if you really don't care about others and about society as a whole there can't be discussion, despite the fact that you belong to that society you see the rules as not applicable to you.

Fair enough - at least you have the integrity to stick to your principles.

100% honest with you here budski....you're correct. i do NOT care about others and society as a whole....there are only a couple people in this world that i care about.....
i don't know why....we've been trying to figure it out.....issues from childhood possibly. other things....viscious father...i don't know...

the point is i just don't care about people....
i am talking as a whole..

i see some guy walking across the sidewalk, i don't care about him...if he falls, i am not going to run out and help him up...
if three people go out there and start messing with him or beating on them, well, then it's next level time.

i thought we have been having a discussion for 16 pages budski...

i don't claim to be a good person. i don't think i am a bad person but i don't know if i am good. there are a couple people i would give my life for and all the rest, it really matters not...

agree to disagree i guess.

reply to post by Boondock78


In fairness, I was pretty much the same way throughout my teens and early twenties, but then I started to think about where my life was headed as a consequence of my actions. Once I started to think about things I gradually started to change - and a big part of that was how my actions affected others as well as myself.
I didn't have any sudden insight or anything like that, it just happened over a period of time.
One of the things I thought about was my violent upbringing, and the biggest factor in me changing was that I didn't want to have the imprint of my stepdad on me for the rest of my life dictating my actions.

Perhaps I changed too radically, and went from not caring to caring too much about how my actions affect others.

So I stopped the bad stuff (I was either lucky enough or clever enough not to get caught) went to college, and got a degree and then a masters and then went and got a good paying job.
I was also lucky in that I'd always been into boxing and martial arts, so I had a way to channel excess aggression that didn't involve other people.

These days I'm very much aware of others and how certain kinds of speech and actions can be perceived, and for quite some time I've taken care not to offend or ridicule or offer any kind of verbal aggression.
I suppose I just started to ask myself this question: "How would I feel if someone did that to me"
The more I asked myself, the more I held these point of views we've discussed.

reply to post by budski


i guess i went the other way..
i used to be social enough. enjoyed being around people and were aware of whats what.
as i get older though, i care less and less.

i am bitter. i have lots of pain and have had it for years. i have a hard enough time trying to be happy in my miserable ass life to try and do or not do things for fear of how they might effect others...

i don't go out of my way to hurt people. i don't go out of my way to be loud or rude or obnoxious but say if my wife and i are in line in the grocery store, i'm going to talk how i am going to talk. th ecuss words will fly out. i cuss a LOT. i damn near can't help it....don't even know i am doing it some of the time....

point is, if i was in line talking to my wife, having a conversation with her and someone butted in and tried to pull some tone it down speech, i would probably really freak out.

i have anger issues. i know thiss. i have social anxiety issues...i know this too.

i STILL feel though in the end, i should not have to curb what i say cause someone might not agree.
physical abuse, abusing someones personal space, etc that is all a different deal...

i am talking about stuff like walking the mall and you hear a comment i make and you don't like it and decide to approach me about it....
IMO, you have no right to do that and most of the time i would get very upset cause i would look at it as you getting into my personal space.


as i said before, right or wrong, jerk or not....i am just being honest about how/who i am.
i just feel how i feel. i know society looks at things this way and that.
i live life by my rules...

that does not mean i am some outlaw out there living on the edge.

i pay my taxes. i do the speed limit. i don't murder people...
but, there are things that are on the other side of the law that i do, do....

i am not going to stop doing something i like cause the law or society frowns on it or says it is against the law...

stupid as it sounds, i was not consulted when the laws were put to paper so, i go by my own deals...
don't always work out for me and i as an adult know what i face.

only my problem though

reply to post by Boondock78


I always appreciate honesty

I guess it's been so long since I thought the way you do that I no longer understand it or have much conception of it and so can't understand it.

Couple of other points - someone goes at you for your language in a mall or in a queue, I think you have every right to tell them to butt out.
BUT, if I'm in a restaurant or a bar and someone is spoiling my night by being mouthy about things I find offensive, I think I every right to say something to them - of course they have the right to tell me to mind my own business, but I'm the sort of person who stands up for what I think is right, and stands up for my principles so I'm going to say it anyway

This has got me into situations that I don't care to be in a couple of times, but I won't back down from my principles - like you, I have the integrity to stick to what I believe is right.

Post deleted - off topic

[edit on 14/11/07 by masqua]