New Law Could Make Gay Jokes Illegal

reply to post by budski


But there's no such thing as a negative right. Rights are indeed positive; that is, they are something that the individual has. Like the right to free speech is not the right to not have speech regulated. They're similar, but not the same. Though that's not a big difference, I have to emphasize it.

The issue is that a mere joke does nothing to harm anyone it itself. Regulating the contents of such a thing is absolutely infringing on the right of free speech.

Now, people say things such as how people need to be protected from attacks and prejudice. That's absolutely true. However, they already are, and you don't need to infringe on speech to do so. There are already laws protecting people from harassment and segregational practices. Bullying and whatnot can be targeted on its own.

We don't need to make it illegal to tell a joke to protect a few people from something they may find offensive. Not only is tolerance of other beliefs, especially those of which you do not agree, an important part of anyone's life, but if it goes from a joke to harassment or bullying, those actions can be themselves targeted without any damage to rights.

It is illegal to shout the word "fire" in any place where the public assembles, unless of course there is a fire.

Why?

Because if someone yells it then there could be severe injuries or fatalities.

So am I losing my freedom of speech? No.

Unfortunately though, someone , at some point , thought it would be a really neat joke, and people probably got hurt or killed.

Is it so wrong to put a law into the books that protects minorities? I would hope not.

reply to post by Johnmike

Before I put you back on ignore, I'll respond to this puerile inanity you call an answer.

The legislation has nothing to suggest it would be used in the ways mentioned in the thread.

The article was a concern voiced by mr bean - you should try reading it instead of spouting your usual hate filled diatribe.

And another question - why is british legislation so important to those it will not affect?

click

Originally posted by budski
Before I put you back on ignore, I'll respond to this puerile inanity you call an answer.

Please stop attacking me and actually contribute to the thread. You don't have to be hostile.

Originally posted by budski
The legislation has nothing to suggest it would be used in the ways mentioned in the thread.

Oh?

Originally posted by budski
The article was a concern voiced by mr bean - you should try reading it instead of spouting your usual hate filled diatribe.

Thanks again.



Budski, stop harassing me around this board. In every thread you act like an infantile brat if God forbid someone disagrees with you.

reply to post by TruthWithin


As you can probably see from some of the posts, some people value their right to say what they want over the right of the individual to lead a life free of prejudice.

Well, that's their call - I just hope they get a taste of what it's like when the boots on the other foot sometime.

It's not nice being prejudiced against, or bullied or the butt of some smart alecs jokes, who wants to appear clever by picking on easy targets.

Let's please just focus on the topic, and avoid unnecessary commentary about other members.

Thanks

Originally posted by budski

And another question - why is british legislation so important to those it will not affect?

Good question. And I'll answer it with a question. Why is what goes on internally in the U.S. so important to those it will not effect? People from all over continually post about U.S. issues.

ATS is global in its membership, so I guess you need to learn to deal with it.

Originally posted by budski
And another question - why is british legislation so important to those it will not affect?

click

fun to talk about..
i guess the same reasons we constantly talk about issues in iraq, iran, china, africa, etc etc....
far reaching community my man

reply to post by centurion1211


I can't speak for others, but I'm interested in how US politics and the "special relationship" affects the UK.

But point taken - apologies.

Another point about the US is that we see trends in the US make their way across the water to the UK and sometimes mainland europe, but I haven't really seen anything going in the other direction, although it wouldn't surprise me to see a form of this legislation make the crossover.


[edit on 13/11/2007 by budski]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
What I am ASKING is: Where draw the line?

wikipedia brandenburg v. ohio
"If one stops short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law, it seems to me one should not be held to have attempted to cause its violation."

also of interest:

"clear and present danger"
"fire in crowded theatre"
"imminent lawless action"

I believe that is as high as the law goes to interpret the constitution of the United States.

Call a man a faggot all you like.

Just do not urge another man to "beat that faggot up."

In Sweden either statement would be a crime. "Hets mot folkgrupp"

I am,

Sri Oracle

[edit on 13-11-2007 by Sri Oracle]

Political correctness is killing us as a society and even a species, there goes any semblance of free speech. We all better keep quiet because a joke or a opinion might get you locked up.
Try to find an anti political correctness group to join.
I'm glad that you started this thread. Martin Luther King wanted equall rights that everyone would be treated the same, that no one would recieve special treatment and when you are no longer allowed to make fun of someone or just be generally insensitive, thats tantamount to special treatment, but I am curiouse about something (and here is where I get a lot of threats) isn't being punished for saying the "n" word kind of along the same lines, yet very few people seem to be speaking out against that. It's not nice or right to say things that would hurt someones feelings, but damn you shouldn't locked up or fined for it. Just an opinion, if you don't like joke back or talk smack or something, don't just cry and ask people to change the laws because you are sensitive. What is the world coming to?

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by budski
Before I put you back on ignore, I'll respond to this puerile inanity you call an answer.

Please stop attacking me and actually contribute to the thread. You don't have to be hostile.

And yet, you are advocating gay jokes and freedom of speech to do so? Think about how you felt while typing this. Now think about what gay people (and other minorities) go through ALL DAY LONG. Not so much fun when the shoe is on the other foot is it?

Mods: I know this is slightly off topic, but I'm using it to prove a point.

[edit on 11/13/2007 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff
And yet, you are advocating gay jokes...

Wrong.

Originally posted by Griff
...and freedom of speech to do so?

You know you're screwed when people attack you for advocating free speech.

Goodbye, freedom.

Originally posted by Griff
Think about how you felt while typing this.

If you meant my response to budski, amused. If I was annoyed, I'd make it known.

If you mean this, pitiful and a bit saddened.

Originally posted by Griff
Now think about what gay people (and other minorities) go through ALL DAY LONG. Not so much fun when the shoe is on the other foot is it?

I've felt plenty of prejudice, mostly from blacks to be honest. I swear, if I hear the word "cracker" one more time...

If you mean they they should have my pity, then in most cases you're absolutely right. But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you either didn't read or failed to understand my previous posts properly (may not be your fault).

We can't legislate culture away, we can't legislate against prejudice or bigotry or hatred. But we can protect the individual from their effects. That is, we have laws against harassment, bullying, segregation, and so forth.
However, regulating speech is a step in the wrong direction. The single biggest problem is that it means that you can legislate away anything that could be "offensive." I find the word "cracker" offensive when used in racist context, I find communists and socialists and fascists offensive, I find flag burning offensive, I find all sorts of things offensive. But you can't just make them disappear by making them illegal to use; all you achieve is a completely unnecessary tyranny by the government that would be absolutely impossible to enforce. Just because a gay person would find a gay joke offensive doesn't mean that you just ban all jokes about gays. Like how I wouldn't ban all jokes about whites (I'm mostly Irish, part Italian, Welsh...) or anything of the sort. I would want to be protected against harassment and bullying, as I am under harassment and bullying laws.

But you don't have to censor speech to stop it. All it would do is make it worse.

I'm not the one who typed:

Budski, stop harassing me around this board.

The only harassment on this board could only come from words. You know, freedom of speech. Which you either wanted to a) stifle his freedom of speech or b) call on the mods to do so. Now do you understand what I was trying to say?

reply to post by Griff

Griff, what the hell are you going on about? I am not going to go on about Budski here. If you want to know more, you can U2U me and I might explain some of it to you.

I think you're just trolling, but I'll entertain you. One, this forum is private property. That is, the owner has the right to control everything that's on it. Two, harassment is an attack on the individual, as I have already explained at least three times. The speech isn't illegal, but the harassment is (like how moving isn't illegal but a assault is since it violated individual rights). Three, it is absolutely none of your business how Buski and I interact. I know you wanted to use it as an example, but this is something specific, entirely inapplicable and unrelated to blanket censorship.

reply to post by Johnmike


Allright. My mistake since I don't know the issues behind it. I was only addressing this thread. If you see that as trolling, then so be it. As you said. This forum is privately owned and until I am told by an admin to shut up, I will continue to post my opinion.

Sorry if that offended you, it was not my intention. My intention was to point out (and not necessarily to you) how it feels to be harassed. On a closing note, I agree with you all that outlawing speech is the wrong way to go.


[edit on 11/13/2007 by Griff]

Johnmike,

I do not usually agree with you, but in this case I do.

Where do we draw the line from what is 'offensive' and 'illegal?'

Last time I checked there is not a law outlawing the use of any other derogatory terms.

Why is the word 'faggot' and the like any different?

I don't see why people who are homosexual or any other type of 'minority' deserve special treatment!

We are all on a scale of sexuality, no one is 100% gay or straight.

We are living in a PC world gone clinically insane.

Enough with the infringing of our rights. Someone might actually do something about it this time around and they might happen to be gay (oh no).

reply to post by Griff


No worries, you didn't offend me. I should apologize really; my reaction was pretty much out of proportion, I think, mainly since there are so many people who respond in a trolling way (people who want to win an argument more than get a point across and grasp little things while ignoring posts, etc.).

WOW!!! I come back in here after my first post and this is still going on?
What the h*ll give's you the right to tell a joke in fromt of a handicap, sexual gender, race, religion and feel good about it! If you do then there's some looking into a mirror problem here. And I do mean a big mirror. Are you that perfect that you only see people like you that matter? Well I've got news for those that do. " You're not only impefect in the visual view, but in your own mortal being. Get a grip and get to know your own human race. If it wasn't for all of the human race then we might not be here. We've made leaps and bounds from biological & social studies of human beings and their genes. Freedom of speech is a right not a wrong. Come on, get some gutts and speak right.!!




[edit on 11/13/2007 by Solarskye]

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by open mind
why is this a bad thing, I mena i'm not gay and i don't know anyone that is but surely this is a good thing. I don't think that this should affect you unless you are a homaphobe and use gay jokes alot

. If you are then shame on you your no better than a racist

I'll use homophobic jokes whenever I damn want! I'll use racist jokes whenever I want, too! I don't care if you "don't think it should affect me." Ignorant people such as yourself are why Hitler was able to so easily control Germany and why millions were killed under his regime! I can't comprehend the level of absolute idiocy that's required to make such closed-minded statements.

Slightly off topic, but this is fairly typical of this member - hence my comment about hate filled diatribe.
It's OK for him to say what he wants, but god forbid anyone else should speak their mind.
As for harassing around the boards? I've had him on ignore for quite some time so I don't really see how that's possible.

Back to the topic at hand,
I firmly believe that an individuals right to live his life without having to listen to mindless jokes about his ethnicity or sexual preference is more important than somebodys right to make that joke.

If someone wants to go see a comedian, fully aware that there may be offensive content, that's one thing.
But picking on a person because they are perceived as different is (again) just being a bully.