Payment for Services Rendered

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Can we all agree that this country enslaved Africans?
Can we all agree that they were kidnapped, forced onto work camps, and not paid?
Can we all agree that this country only begrudgingly set them free in 1865?
Can we all agree that Jim Crow was just as 'freedom-inhibiting' as actual enslavement?
Can we all agree that black Americans were just officially granted the rights and privileges of other American citizens in 1965?
Can we all agree that this new arrangement is still in the process of 'trickling down' to the rest of the population?

Yes, to all.
And I just want to re-iterate what I've stated in other threads, its really mind boggling to think that the peopel that raised the current generation of young adults was the very generation that the civil rights movement occured in, that is, when they were born, the civil rights movement hadn't even occured. Consider also that the average politician and senior level professional in this country was also born and raised before the civil rights movement or smack in the middle of it.

So what's the problem? Really?

Most white people don't understand that, despite the civil rights movement and the serious progress that we've all made since then, that racism is still a real and serious problem, and that the current situation that blacks are in today is a direct result of pre-civil rights era insitutionalized/legal/popular racism.

IOW, ignorance, imo.



However, lets consider this for a momement. Affirmative Action is a legally sanctioned process whereby blacks get 'preferential' treatment at the point of being hired for a job (neverminding of course that whites get preferential treatment at birth and throughout life). Even though many of us agree that is it necessary to try to undo whats called "historic injustice", it is STILL giving legal preferential treatment to one race. It is natural for any race that is on the 'short end' of that stick to object to it. Indeed, I wouldnt' be terribly surprised if we could find black writers from the distant past who felt that they were still better off because of slavery, afterall, many blacks fought with the south during the civil war. Thats a position that is almost incomprehensible today. Perhaps in the future, people will similarly look at whites that 'supported' affirmative action in a similar way, no?

If we're talking about reparations:

Blacks have a decent claim for reparations, assuming of course that they could distinguish who would and who wouldn't receive them.

BUT, so do a lot of other people. The government can't be sued, for example, for its foreign policy. I don't think that the government can function at all if it has to pay reparations to everyone its ever taken advantage of. That may not be right, but its what we have to deal with. Reparations are too impractical, and they are on moderately shakey legal ground as it is, since it was many generations ago that slavery existed, and usually reparations involve the children of the individuals exploited, rather than an entire exploited class.


Anyway I think that the native amerindians should get reparations before the blacks, if we're starting to dole them out.


And when are my people going to get reparations? Generations ago, in europe, the neanderthals were systematically oppressed!

Originally posted by Wildbob77
However, it was individuals who bought slaves, not the country.

The government legall sanctioned it, protected it, and even extended it in the end, so as to balance the number of slave and free states in congress to avoid a crisis over it.

Besides, even IF the government wasn't responsible for it (which is a ridiculous statement really), it STILL benefited from it, financially, and that is the basis for all reparations claims, if that is what we are talking about.

annestacey
Have you considered the law of karma?

Karma is a theological concept with no basis in reality, and it hardly justifies slavery to say that the slaves must've been bad people 'in another life'.

stumason
No, because that is not what happened. Africans enslaved africans and were doing it before we showed up.

The fact that the americans purchased the slaves from coastal african slave markets HARDLY undoes the claim for reparations. It DOES add another group from which american blacks CAN seek reparations, that is, if the african governments at the time actually still existed.

The fact is that the companies and government that financially benefited from depriving blacks of their human rights are around today. That makes up the basis for the call for reparations.

dock6
I don't think they'd even evolved to the extent they had the wheel, had they?

What?

Are you kidding?

You need to educate yourself bub.

My grandmother went to her grave with the horrible secret that she was a "half-breed". Her mother was native american (indian to you non politically correct) and in her day it was illegal and dangerous to be found to be a half-breed. She lived her life in fear of being found out despite her "good fortune" of looking caucasian. You want to talk about a wronged group of people? Let's look at the Native American people. Better yet, let's look at a brave woman: my grandmother. I remember her saying to me as a child, " you may have to be poor but you don't have to be dirty and you don't have to be ignorant, so take your bath and do your homework". My grandfather was also a "half-breed" and never once said that anything was owed to him because of the wrong done to him.
America is the great melting pot and I seriously doubt that anyone can claim "pure blood" anymore in this country and even if they could, so what? My ancestors were wronged, my family was personally wronged and it has never once occurred to me to go get on the indian rolls and collect benefits. I have able hands, a good mind, determination and, most importantly what I don't have is a victim mentality that insists that somebody owes me because of something that didn't happen to me personally.
Slavery was wrong, is wrong and happened anyway. Get over it. I have picked cotton until my fingers bled. Have you?
History has been greatly romanticized. Sure slavers went over to Africa and stole people but only after they realized that the African kings were enslaving their own people and would sell them for beads and baubles and probably wouldn't mind if half of them just disappeared on boats sailing to America. Blacks have contributed greatly to the building of this country and for that I am thankful but if they're going to continue whinning and dipping into my pocketbook, I'd rather they go back to Africa. I'd be happy to kick in for the boat ride back to AIDS infested Africa. Thomas Jefferson wrote letters to the members of the constitutional congress about sending blacks back to Africa but it was decided that a nascent country that was so broke that they had to print "in god we trust" on the money because there was no gold to back it up just couldn't afford the boat fare.
Blacks are approximately 20% of the population and commit 80% of the crime in this country. We're already paying, baby. We're paying with increased taxes to house, feed and medically treat all the criminals. We're paying for all the welfare moms (overwhelmingly black) who keep cranking out kids that they think somebody else should pay to raise. Etc. ad nauseum.
I work with blacks that actually work for a living and I have the utmost respect for them because they don't view themselves as victims. As a female (the most universally oppressed minority in the world), I don't view myself as a victim and it irks me to no end to hear people whine about their lousy lot in life and even more to whine about their great grandparents lousy lot in life. GET OVER IT!

Originally posted by nextguyinline
5,000 dollars or whatever it may be, will not stop racism, it will not improve the situation of blacks in this country.

It's not meant to do any of that. It's a fair exchange of deferred payment for forced labor.

We are fair, aren't we?

It will not change minds or hearts!

No, that's where the individual becomes responsible. Totally different conversation.

I give reperations with my actions, treatments and awareness.

No offense to you, but you are a nobody. Your individual actions, while kind, will not fix 400 years of oppression.

Continue to ponder that particular course of action.

Does charity, and yes, at this time, reperations would be a charity, make one feel good about one's self? I doubt it.

This is deflection. You're avoiding the question by attempting to make me feel some shame in requesting what rightfully belongs to me/us.

It won't work.

Again, the question is: Do we (as Americans, not 'whites') owe these people payment for services rendered?

The jews got reperations and a nation. It did not 'right' the holocaust, and mistreatments of those people.

No, it did not, but it certainly gave the Jewish people a means to defend themselves.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by nextguyinline
5,000 dollars or whatever it may be, will not stop racism, it will not improve the situation of blacks in this country.

It's not meant to do any of that. It's a fair exchange of deferred payment for forced labor.

We are fair, aren't we?

I would like to think that we are trying to be fair.

I think AA and the multitude of other minority empowering practices in this country has met the deferrence of payment.

It will not change minds or hearts!

No, that's where the individual becomes responsible. Totally different conversation.

So you want reperations solely for their monetary value? For what they can do for you, as an individual? Forget your community as a whole?

I give reperations with my actions, treatments and awareness.

No offense to you, but you are a nobody. Your individual actions, while kind, will not fix 400 years of oppression.

Continue to ponder that particular course of action.

If the individual doesn't do anything, how can you expect a group of them too?

Reperations aren't for fixing 400 years remember? They are apparently for your individual monetary needs.

I realise I'm a nobody now. But if we ever cross paths, I could be a somebody to you.

Does charity, and yes, at this time, reperations would be a charity, make one feel good about one's self? I doubt it.

This is deflection. You're avoiding the question by attempting to make me feel some shame in requesting what rightfully belongs to me/us.

It won't work.

Again, the question is: Do we (as Americans, not 'whites') owe these people payment for services rendered?

I didn't deflect. I answered. NO we don't owe you.

The jews got reperations and a nation. It did not 'right' the holocaust, and mistreatments of those people.

No, it did not, but it certainly gave the Jewish people a means to defend themselves.

You want your own nation? You don't feel 'American'? There is one for you. A lot of them. Throw a dart, and pick one.

Racial issues are a tool of the government to keep the American people divided and bickering between each other. This divide and conquer strategy is working real well as demonstrated by most of the preceding posts in this thread. It is impossible to move forward in the right direction while looking back over your shoulder.

The beauty of ATS is that it makes it possible to debate ideas without the baggage of age, gender, skin color or other physical appearances. The only reason for posters to specify any these characteristics about themselves is because they know that the reason & logic of their position is inadequate, so they must inject these things into the discussion to emotionally obscure things and to gain the support of those just like themselves.

No doubt someone will try to paint me some color of their choosing, despite the fact that I've not stated my employment, age, gender or skin color. The only other option is to ignore me, because you can not refute my argument with either reason or logic.


[edit on 24-2-2007 by df1]

What argument?

That the government intentionally uses race to divide? Wrong thread, and of course you can be countered with logic and reason. Your not that enlightened.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Wrong thread, and of course you can be countered with logic and reason. Your not that enlightened.

I suppose I could have selected from any of the other racially divisive threads that have been popping on ATS recently, but this one seemed right to me. You can feel free to start countering me with your reason & logic any time you like. I make a great effort to see past my own bias, but I made no claims of being more enlightened than the next him or her.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
So you want reperations solely for their monetary value? For what they can do for you, as an individual? Forget your community as a whole?

No, silly. I'm extremely community-oriented. When you said, it wouldn't change hearts and minds, I assumed that you meant reparations wouldn't stop individuals from being racist. My response was that, that's an entirely different conversation.

Make sense now?

If the individual doesn't do anything, how can you expect a group of them too?

You said:

I give reperations with my actions, treatments and awareness.

That, to me, does not qualify, which is why I responded the way I did.

If you hired a day laborer, would you offer him money in exchange for his labor, or "awareness"?

But if we ever cross paths, I could be a somebody to you.

Is that a threat?

You want your own nation? You don't feel 'American'? There is one for you. A lot of them. Throw a dart, and pick one.

Way to avoid my point!

I address your comment, and you change the topic. Try again... this time, responding to what I actually did say.

Originally posted by df1
Racial issues are a tool of the government to keep the American people divided and bickering between each other.

While I agree with this, your first sentence, the rest of your post is really off-topic, since you don't address anything from the OP (which is just a series of yes or no questions, with one follow-up).

Why not start a new thread about that? I'll come.

Your deflecting HarlemHottie.

Your OP asked a bunch of yes/no questions. It's only natural to explain why we chose the yes/no answers. But since, some of our reasons aren't on topic as you suggest, then here is my official response to your OP:

Yes.


p.s. Of course that wasn't a threat.

Thank you HH for starting another thread for this discussion. Here's my response from the first thread as I just now saw this one.

If reparations are simply deferred payment for services rendered, and have nothing to do with current racism or discrimination, then they would be paid only to descendants of slaves, and the funds for such payments would come from a special tax levied only against descendants of slave owners. (Notice no race is mentioned)

This debt, if we agree it exists, cannot be transferred to the population at large. Here's why: If someone owns a house and still owes money on it, and they die, then their relatives (descendants) inherit the burden of the debt. A non-related person who happens to be living in the house and benefiting from the house, does not inherit any part of the debt for the house, even if they continue to live in it.

This same principle would apply in the case of reparations to descendants of slaves for services rendered. And I would totally support the above scenario of payment for services rendered. (Notice no race is mentioned)

Yes, the government would "pay", but using the tax levied against descendants of slave owners, not taxes that the population at large paid into. The only fair way to "charge" the government for this is if we determined the policy-makers of the time who supported slavery and levied a tax against their descendants as well as the slave-owners' descendants.

If these reparations were deferred payment for forced labor, period, we'd also have to figure wages at the time of slavery to determine the amount owed. And we'd have to subtract room and board (as meager as it was - it was given). And then we'd have to know who all were slaves and have accurate records of their descendants.

Isn't that the only fair way to do this? Because if the government uses my taxes (me not being the descendant of slave-owners) to pay "black people" (many not the descendants of slaves) some arbitrary amount of money in reparations... Is that fair? I'm not saying this is your take on it. It's one I've heard.



[edit on 24-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Not meaning to "derail" or anything like that, but I would just like to show a Scottish parrallel to this issue, when it comes to giving it a rest when it comes to holding today's generation hostage over the actions of thier ancestors.

Seeing as this thread is dominated by an American social/historic issue, and therefore is being discussed mainly by the American brethren ( and...sistren?), I am not sure how many of you will be aware that the illogical Scottish Nationalists are gaining voice in the UK right now. Many of their idiot supporters, when asked why they want out of the UK, say something to the tune of: "The English oppressed us!"

Yes, yes we did. Hundreds of years ago. Not now. None of the current English were around when this oppression went down, yet we, The Evil English, are STILL responsible.

According to them that is.

Now, I am not for oppression, and I am certainly not for slavery or racism. And if we (English), or white Americans did bad in the past, I am sure we are all sorry about it happening, but there has to be a time when the guilt tripping ENDS. It's bloody pathetic, and serves only to divide people further.

I mean, are your great grandchildren still going to be harping on about this issue? I hope not. It will serve to drive a wedge between them and kids of other races, and will not only harm how they view the world, but how they socially interact.

You want an apology? Fair enough. But please, lets not try and use history to extort funds, or other things, from people.

Cos I swear to christ, if this continues, I am filing law suits against the City Of Rome, and against Denmark/Norway/Sweden, and against Ze Germans.

Oh, and France too. Damn Normans...

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Why not start a new thread about that? I'll come.

Let me finish up here first. I have no disagreement with the OP, however the topic is being so narrowly restricted that it inhibits reasonable discussion.

Why should discussion be limited only to the US, slavery began long before the US was a country. It seems that the UN would be a better place to pursue compensation since many other countries were involved in the slave trade such as, but not limited to, the British, Dutch & Spanish. Also slavery was established in many geographic locations besides the US, so a US only solution would leave many of the victims of slavery uncompensated.

The country of Israel was formed by the UN as compensation for global sins against the Jewish people, so we have a precedent for the UN providing a remedy for past racial crimes by humanity against the people of a particular race. The Jewish people sought their own country, but their is no reason that the descendants of slaves need to seek their own country, the remedy could just as easily be monetary compensation to the descendants.

Limiting this discussion to only American slave descendants is a case of economic bias because by keeping the pool of recipients small it increases the per capita potential compensation of those in this exclusionary group, while those outside this pool would get nothing. This diminishes the strength of the moral argument for compensation by creating the perception that this is nothing more than a money grab by some Americans, whether this is truly the case or not.

this was originally posted in wccsar's thread, guilt by dna.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
they would be paid only to descendants of slaves,

Absolutely. Who suggested otherwise?

and the funds for such payments would come from a special tax levied only against descendants of slave owners.

I disagree here.

The federal government is guilty of legalizing and unconstitutional practice. The money should come out of the government's coffers, however they manage to get it.

Individuals will have to make their peace, if they feel that they need to, some other way.

This debt, if we agree it exists, cannot be transferred to the population at large. Here's why...

If I may tweak your example a bit, I see this situation differently. It's more like, someone builds a house on an Indian burial ground, their descendants live there happily, and invite the new guy to move in. When the fed's come knocking, to make it a historical site or whatever, the new guy has to leave too. It doesn't matter if they knew it or not.

In case the purpose for my changes are unclear, "when the fed's come knocking" is a reference to the federal government using tax dollars accumulated from the entire population to pay this centuries-old debt.

Because, if you really think about it, black Americans would also be funding out own restitution, and that's not fair either.

That's what happens when you wait to long to fix and old problem. It becomes more difficult to fix.

If these reparations were deferred payment for forced labor, period, we'd also have to figure wages at the time of slavery to determine the amount owed. And we'd have to subtract room and board (as meager as it was - it was given).

I wouldn't want to put to fine a point on that part yet. This country has paid reparations before, and we were instrumental in making sure the Jews got their reparations. I'm sure there are pre-established ways to tabulate the amount.

I doubt that the Germans deducted 'concentration camp' expenses from Holocaust survivors.

And then we'd have to know who all were slaves and have accurate records of their descendants.

Of course.

(btw, I say "who-all" too. )

Because if the government uses my taxes (me not being the descendant of slave-owners) to pay "black people" (many not the descendants of slaves) some arbitrary amount of money in reparations... Is that fair?

Is it fair that my tax dollars are going to Iraq, even though I objected from day one?

No, but we don't get much of a choice when it comes to how they spend our money. I would think that Americans, tired of our government killing people with our money and destabilizing foreign governments, would jump at the chance to do something positive.

Wouldn't it be a surprise if, instead of succumbing to our baser emotions, reparations were paid, and the whole population realized, Hey- we can get them to do what we want!

I'm not saying this is your take on it. It's one I've heard.

I think I said this before, but the form that reparations would come in is negotiable. Many black groups are proposing community initiatives with the money, as opposed to individual checks to black Americans. I don't know where people are getting this (wrong) idea.

I blame fear-mongering...

OK, I'll just reply to this thread about reparations from now on. Sorry for the confusion! Here's my response from over there.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Absolutely. Who suggested otherwise?

I think that's part of the problem, I'm not sure what you're suggesting happen. I made clear what I would support. Will you make clear what you'd like to see?

I disagree here.

The federal government is guilty of legalizing and unconstitutional practice. The money should come out of the government's coffers, however they manage to get it.

Noted.

Individuals will have to make their peace, if they feel that they need to, some other way.

I feel that ALL individuals should make their peace with the past.

If I may tweak your example a bit,

You "tweaked" it beyond all recognition.

It's more like, someone builds a house on an Indian burial ground, their descendants live there happily, and invite the new guy to move in. When the fed's come knocking, to make it a historical site or whatever, the new guy has to leave too.

But the new guy doesn't have to PAY or LOSE anything to the Indians for the mistakes made by the people who built the house. In fact, he has to go find somewhere else to live. You said you wanted "deferred payment for forced labor, period." You changed the story completely.

Because, if you really think about it, black Americans would also be funding out [our] own restitution, and that's not fair either.

Yes. Tell me more about that. Would white Americans who are decendants of slaves also receive reparations in equal amounts?

This country has paid reparations before,

For deferred payment for forced labor?

I doubt that the Germans deducted 'concentration camp' expenses from Holocaust survivors.

A. I believe those were paid to the actual survivors, not their descendants.
B. I thought we were talking about black American reparations. You aren't deflecting, are you? Please don't bring up other countries when it's convenient and disallow them when it's not.

(btw, I say "who-all" too.

)

No, but we don't get much of a choice when it comes to how they spend our money.

Yes, you're right. We don't get much of a choice, but I'm talking about my 'druthers' here. And if the government decides to pay reparations, I will continue to pay my taxes, and I will continue to bitch about where they're going.

This post contains responses to Nygdan, whitewave, and nextguyinline.

Originally posted by Nygdan
its really mind boggling to think that the peopel that raised the current generation of young adults was the very generation that the civil rights movement occured in, that is, when they were born, the civil rights movement hadn't even occured.

It's not mind-boggling. It makes perfect sense, considering the racially ignorant children they raised.

Most white people don't understand... that the current situation that blacks are in today is a direct result of pre-civil rights era insitutionalized/legal/popular racism.

This is what truthseeka is saying in his thread Real Talk About White Privilege. I'm paraphrasing, but he quoted an article from ZNET where the author says, 'It's not a problem unless white people find it so. If people of color object or disagree, they're ignored." I find that to be disturbingly accurate.

And when you try to educate them on the subject, they don't even want to hear it.

Isn't that against everything ATS stands for? Why are they here?

It is natural for any race that is on the 'short end' of that stick to object to it.

I get that, which is why I'm for financially-based AA, as opposed to race-based preferences. Unfortunately, in these conversations, it doesn't really matter what I think because people see the title, or the OP, and already have a whole diatribe prepared. Ignorance at its finest.

Blacks have a decent claim for reparations, assuming of course that they could distinguish who would and who wouldn't receive them.

That would easy enough. It could work like the Native American system, whereby you need to have a certain number of ancestors, in this case, who were slaves. In case census records prove in conclusive, one could also establish their ancestors by geographic location (ie, my family has lived in the same town since slavery, so I'm sure there are land deeds and such going back all the way to abolition).

Anyway I think that the native amerindians should get reparations before the blacks, if we're starting to dole them out.

Haven't they received them? I mean, it's definitely debatable whether they got a crappy deal, but they've had reservations for some time now... right? [I'm not up on the Native American movement, but, seeing as how one of my parents has enough Native ancestry to be put on the rolls, I should be. I'm a little distracted with the 'black stuff.']

Generations ago, in europe, the neanderthals were systematically oppressed!

They certainly were!

But, on a serious (off-topic) note, they didn't intermingle with humans... reproductively, right? Don't confuse me, I'm trying to get a hold on pre-history, and you're throwing me totally off.

Originally posted by whitewave
Blacks have contributed greatly to the building of this country and for that I am thankful but if they're going to continue whinning and dipping into my pocketbook, I'd rather they go back to Africa.

Folks, this is what I meant by "rehashed Klan rhetoric."

Whitewave, I normally don't reply to people who evince such overwhelming ignorance, but it's my responsibility to share some things with you.

1. Black Americans have paid taxes since 1865.

2. The US Treasury is NOT "your pocketbook."

3. There are some Native Americans who, I'm sure, would like for you to go back to Europe. Nobody's "going back" anywhere, so take that option off the table.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Your deflecting HarlemHottie.

Which of my posts are you responding to here?

Of course that wasn't a threat.

Don't me.

How could I know what you meant? I didn't, which is why I asked before jumping to conclusions. I still don't, actually.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Haven't they received them? I mean, it's definitely debatable whether they got a crappy deal, but they've had reservations for some time now... right?

It is not debatable at all. Every freaking square inch of land in North America belonged to the American Indians. Reservations were not a settlement negotiated by the American Indians. The Indians were hunted down & killed with the sick & starving survivors herded onto reservations like cattle, typically at gun point. I in no way diminish the brutal treatment received by the slaves, however the slaves had a picnic lunch when compared to the treatment received by American Indians at the hands of the white man.

The American Indians were being persecuted long before the first slave ever set foot on the North American continent. Surely if reparations are being considered for services rendered by slaves, reparations must first be considered for the seizure of Indian real estate. Ignorance of the plight of slaves is unacceptable to you, but we are suppose to accept your continued ignorance of the plight of the American Indians as just fine & dandy.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Why is that concept so hard for people to grasp when it comes to black Americans?

Can we all agree that this country enslaved Africans?

No. Individuals enslaved Africans, not the US gov't.

Can we all agree that they were kidnapped, forced onto work camps, and not paid?

No. They were bought by Americans, but kidnapped and originally enslaved by Africans.

Can we all agree that this country only begrudgingly set them free in 1865?

No. This country split in two, and the official gov't (the country) waged a costly war to free them. Not begrudgingly, either.

Can we all agree that Jim Crow was just as 'freedom-inhibiting' as actual enslavement?

Can we all agree that black Americans were just officially granted the rights and privileges of other American citizens in 1965?

Yes, OK.

Can we all agree that this new arrangement is still in the process of 'trickling down' to the rest of the population?

It's as good as it's going to get. Laws have been passed, AA was implemented. Other than that, you can't change people's opinions.

So what's the problem? Really?

I don't know; you tell me.

I get the feeling that all the racial threads in the prior six months have just been a prelude to the topic of this thread: reparations. I know that *I* brought the topic up several times, but it was ignored; perhaps the ground was still too fallow at the time for the topic to be addressed.

My thoughts regarding reparation: they should be symbolic. As such, let us frame a crisp $1 bill and hang it in a prominent place, with a statement that this belongs to all black people who were slaves.

Otherwise, I see this topic as a typical Jesse Jakson shakedown scam.

Originally posted by Nygdan
And I just want to re-iterate what I've stated in other threads, its really mind boggling to think that the peopel that raised the current generation of young adults was the very generation that the civil rights movement occured in, that is, when they were born, the civil rights movement hadn't even occured. Consider also that the average politician and senior level professional in this country was also born and raised before the civil rights movement or smack in the middle of it.

Yes, it is mind boggling when one considers all the progress that has been made in such a short period of time. Redlining, for example, is now illegal, as are discriminatory hiring practices. The higher education system is practically a wide open door for minorities. Hate laws have been passed.

Most white people don't understand that, despite the civil rights movement and the serious progress that we've all made since then, that racism is still a real and serious problem, and that the current situation that blacks are in today is a direct result of pre-civil rights era insitutionalized/legal/popular racism.

I disagree with your assessment of "most white people" Just because they don't wear racial awareness on their sleeve does not mean that they practice racism, nor does it mean that they are unaware that it still exists.

IOW, ignorance, imo.

Not imo. It's just life. Most people are not aware of the ravages of cancer and diabetes on American society, either. That doesn't mean they don't care. Most people are too busy making a living and raising a family to make it the top priority in their lives.

However, lets consider this for a momement. Affirmative Action is a legally sanctioned process whereby blacks get 'preferential' treatment at the point of being hired for a job (neverminding of course that whites get preferential treatment at birth and throughout life).

No no. I won't let you slide this one by. There is no preferential treatment given to whites from birth to death, as you allege. If anything, AA makes it the other way around.