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Originally posted by df1
Ignorance of the plight of slaves is unacceptable to you, but we are suppose to accept your continued ignorance of the plight of the American Indians as just fine & dandy.
Originally posted by seagull
I've asked this question before, and I don't recall getting an answer then either, so my expectations of getting one here are rather low; but I'm going to try anyway. What good will reparations do?
Originally posted by BenevolentHeretic
B. I thought we were talking about black American reparations. You aren't deflecting, are you? Please don't bring up other countries when it's convenient and disallow them when it's not.
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
That would be blaming them for the crimes of their ancestors. I contend that the US government is at fault for allowing an unlawful practice to flourish, and then benefitting from it.
The US Declaration of Independence (1776) states:
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
While I thank all of those whose family members served on the Union side of that war, the damage had already been done.
Just like your house, unless otherwise specified or legally 'tied-up', will go to your children, so too should reparations.
and why we beat our kids.
The only reason I'm mentioning either Japanese-internment or Holocaust reparations is because those are our only national precedents.
by BH
I'm not sure what you're suggesting happen. I made clear what I would support. Will you make clear what you'd like to see?
...
Would white Americans who are decendants of slaves also receive reparations in equal amounts?
...
A. I believe those were paid to the actual survivors, not their descendants.
by BH
Then the responsible parties are the descendants of the slave-owners who directly profited from the services rendered. If the guy next door remodels his house, MY property values go up. I benefit. But I don't owe him anything toward the price of his remodel.
When a company underpays someone, THE COMPANY is sued, not the government and not the population. And the beneficiaries of that lawsuit are the employees themselves, not the descendants of the employees.
by BH
The government ALLOWED the people to own slaves. They did not REQUIRE them to own slaves. The choice was the individual's. They made the choice to own slaves or not.
...The government ALLOWS the people to go bungee jumping. They do not REQUIRE them to go bungee jumping. The choice is ours. We make the choice to go bungee jumping or not.
If we are hurt while bungee jumping, we sue the company, not the government which allows bungee jumping to be legal.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The D of I holds no force in law. It's a set of guiding principles, but going against it breaks no laws.
It was totally legal.
So, do you feel that thanking those who died to free the slaves is sufficient?
So, if you can thank those who gave their lives to eliminate slavery, I can thank the slaves and that should be it.
...
And so, in essence, do debts (as should the debt of slave reparations if it exists.). A debt also transfers to the descendants. If a person dies owing money, that money comes out of the estate (which now belongs to the children)
Why do white people beat their kids? Why do they beat their wives?
That's the only reason anyone mentions them.
when you have the time, I'd like you to address the issues in my posts here:
by BH
Will you make clear what you'd like to see?
Would white Americans who are decendants of slaves also receive reparations in equal amounts?
A. I believe those were paid to the actual survivors, not their descendants.
[Your two analogies about property values and companies underpaying employees]
If we are hurt while bungee jumping, we sue the company, not the government which allows bungee jumping to be legal.
Originally posted by djohnsto77
However, the Constitution is quite clear that corruption of blood is illegal. So you can't legally blame someone for the sins of their ancestors.
Article 3, Section 3, Clause 2
"The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
Article 3
...the Court in one case quoted with approval the English distinction between a disability absolute and perpetual and one personal or temporary.
The rest of the article
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Do you have a source for that? It's not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to look into it further.
Source1
In the midst of a war, while forming constitutions in their own provinces, men obviously felt that the treaty and the articles were more difficult projects of practical politics, and set more useful or dangerous legal precedents, than the Declaration itself. The latter was not a legislative instrument. Its issuance was a propaganda adjunct to the act of declaring independence on July 2- and that act in turn, was just the necessary step toward the two projects men were principally wrestling with.
...
The Declaration was not meant to give a religious foundation to this nation, to its founding, its founding documents, its legal system or laws. It was not intended to give a theological discourse on the creation of mankind.
Please! I was being nice thanking them.
In one sentence, you're anti-reparations, period.
So...let me get this right: you're not actually against reparations, per se, you just don't want it to come from your tax-dollars?
I have no idea. I'm not a sociologist.
So...um, what's your point?
Apparently no one reads my posts unless they're specifically directed to them.
b
I thought it would be obvious that we're not at that point.
Considering the reponses in this thread, including yours, there's still a great deal of convincing to do that a call for reparations is even legitimate. I think discussing a plan is jumping the gun at bit.
We waited too long (see #6).
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
6. The black American population has boomed; they must not be hurting too badly.
I don't know what you're talking about with the property values thing, but "underpaying"?! Ha! Try "killing."
Again, bad analogy, as the victim in this case didn't "go bungee jumping," ie, voluntarily participate in a risky activity.
Btw, I noticed no one responded to my basketball analogy about running out the shot-clock.
Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Speaking of payment, the meals and housing the slaves received is a form of payment for services rendered. The slaves did not pay for food and housing, it was provided for them.
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I doubt that the Germans deducted 'concentration camp' expenses from Holocaust survivors.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, you don't really feel grateful? You were just being nice?
No. I am against reparations, per se and every other way... My argument is out of logic, not selfishness.
I contend that people beat their kids for different reasons and using slavery to explain why blacks misbehave is a cop-out.
My point is that when others mention Jews and Germans and other countries who had slaves, you say their deflecting and ask that we speak of The US only.
As I said, this is the first discussion I've had with you or any pro-reparations person about this...
You know, good luck selling your position when you're not willing to say what it is you want...It's a good negotiating tactic, to get agreement before you say exactly what it is you want
when someone is asking for something FROM ME, I have a right to ask exactly what it is. If they're not willing to say, then the answer is no
You mean this?
I don't know what you're talking about with the property values thing, but "underpaying"?! Ha! Try "killing."
Now you're bringing "killing" into it.
And you deflected my question with but "underpaying"?! Ha! Try "killing." instead of addressing the actual issue
I don't speak basketball. So I can't
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
So, you're not going to address my take on the war?
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
While I thank all of those whose family members served on the Union side of that war, the damage had already been done.
Finally realizing that you were wrong does not mean you don't have to attempt to begin to 'make up' for it.
You would have to take up the methodology the sociologists used with the sociologists themselves. I'm simply sharing their findings.
I did not. I told people they were deflecting when they brought up
-what was going on in Africa at the time
-the guilt one would feel from accepting "charity" (which was only good for a laugh)
-that race is a tool to divide us.
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
No deflection, ie, bringing up Irish indentured servants, or the perceived failings of contemporary black Americans.
That would be off-topic.
I'm trying very hard to ignore all the smart remarks, especially from you,
I'm inquiring about the objections to the concept and refining my own plan of action. As I said, hold your horses- next thread.
Excuse me. It's number four, although I have faith that you could have figured that out yourself. I mean, I gave them titles.
Ask your husband. Give him a chuckle. My bf laughed, while being surprised that I knew enough about the sport to think of it.
Originally posted by Deus_Brandon
Then go back to where ever the hell you came from ...
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
IMO, that's like if you're playing basketball, and the guy guarding you puts you in a headlock, thereby running out the shot clock, and your team loses. Shouldn't the ref call that?