What is really Prometheus?

Prometheus and secrets he left behind, please help me to understand

welcome welcome, greek titan who made man

Prometheus created man? Never heard of that.
So i decided to have a look at Wikipedia's files...

en.wikipedia.org...

...and bumped into this:

Prometheus, in Ovid's Metamorphoses, is credited with the creation of man "in godlike image" from clay; in others, this role is assigned to Zeus

I am more familiar with Zeus's assignment to creat man.

Zeus in his wrath denied men the secret of fire. Prometheus felt sorry for his creations, and watched as they shivered in the cold and winter's nights

That's really wierd, 'couse in school we assimilate a different idea. An idea that Prometheus was the one who brought fire to mankind.

In Greek mythology, 'Prometheus (Ancient Greek, Προμηθεύς, "forethought") is the Titan chiefly honored for stealing fire from the gods in the stalk of a fennel plant and giving it to mortals for their use.

I asked once my high-school teacher, why Zeus was so unwilling to help human and instead of cleansing me from the mist: ''Why do you care?''he responded, ''Mythology is not truth, only tales for little children, you had better to study mathematics and physics if you want to pass the exams''

I must admit that was not only my history teacher's view, but the many more's opinion.

While i am still in confusion, i tend to believe that Prometheus created man, something that explains the reason he pains for them, instead of the unwillingness of Zeus to help his creations. To support my sentence, tell me a mother who whouldn't die or suffer for her children.

All of these, about creation, have ignited my imagination and give a ''willing'' spark for questions...

Question: why Wikipedia call Prometheus Lucipher? Sorry, for that silly question but according to my religion (christian orthodox) i don't desire to pronounce even his name.

I just wanted to look deeper.

In mythography, Prometheus may be classed among the trickster gods

Really, does the symbol of a tricky man is snake? If it is...

The Prometheus myth bears striking similarities to the Adamic myth of the fall of man. The Promethean fire and the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge can be considered semiotic synonyms

I don't want to offend anyone, but this resembles the Bible.

Was really Prometheus the Lucifer?

Such a reading seems to identify Yahweh as Zeus and the serpent/Satan as the Prometheus figure

The problems that came along inside my mind is that some theories are often to be said that man was created by ''serpents'', high-advanced and technologicaly far better kinds.

If that is true, then ''Devil'' is not a bad man, after all. Here, i have to highlight that i am strongly against the Satanists' action we all know from mass media and i declare a cristian orthodox. I just want to be open minded and judge of the information around me.

Weird:

When he and his brother Epimetheus set out to make creatures to populate the earth under the orders of Cronos, Prometheus carefully crafted a creature after the shape of the gods: a man.

To stay frank, the quote above gives me the concept of an alien expansion to settle on planet earth. Also, it seems that this period Titans (Cronus, Prometheus) were is peace with Olympians (Zeus, Athena). It is preaty clear when Prometheus helps Zeus to deal with his headach.

According to the myths, a horrendous headache overcame Zeus and no healer of the realm was able to help the Lord of the Gods. Prometheus came to him and declared that he knew how to heal Zeus,

All quotes except the first one are from the link atop.

I am really confused, help always appreciated...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
changed quotes to 'ex' tags

Please read this link about quoting from external sources.

[edit on 29/11/06 by masqua]

Ovid was a poet and not a historian
most scholars don't regard him as a very good source for greek mythology
In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus
in greek mythology Venus was known as both Hesperos (evening star) and Phosphorus (morning star) because the greeks didn't realise that it was the same object until Pythagoras pointed it out
the earliest name for the devil was Satan (the adversary) this is derived from a mesopotamian phrase SA.AN (equal/enemy to god) so has no link to greece at all
if you check your bible (the original source on Satan/Lucife) you will find that he is connected with figures from Mesopotamia only such as Nebuchadrezzar where his name was translated when the bible was translated into greek from his actual title (the morning star) into Lucifer. this is not to say by any means that anyone mentioned in the bible was Satan just that sometimes a lot gets lost in translation. Greece hardly even gets a mention in the old testament at all.

Prometheus was called a trickster god similar to Enki, Loki, Dewi, and Satan because he tricked the Gods and not mankind

Many greek characters along with most mythological characters start off with a few basics and then over the millenia become attached to other stories as is normal with literal composition
you can trust the statements made about him here
www.pantheon.org...
but any more speculation is pretty pointless

My personal interpretation of Prometheus is that his gift of 'fire' is symbolic for the human facet of will or 'ego', and he is a 'Luciferian' type figure.

I refer to the idea of the monomyth coined by Joseph Campbell, which basically says that myths are allegory for psychological contructs & archetypes identified for the modern age by Jung. Using this method and my own introspection I come to the conclusion that the fire represents something along the lines of human desire to achieve material greatness, the power of the ego.

I speak from the armchair, but feel somewhat reinforced by the adepts of the NWO seemingly placing such importance on this mythological figure. These guys are typically luciferian in one form or other, reinforcing the connection. IMO we are essentially discussing the 'triumph of will' and the deification of ego.

Again, I'm no expert on such things, this is just my philestine opinion. I've never read Prometheus being responsible for the creation of humans themselves, so have nothing to add there.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
...Again, I'm no expert on such things, this is just my philestine opinion. ...

And it's a fine and interesting one.

Ovid was a poet and not a historian

Don't tell me that the ''Epic of Gilgamesh'' is a historical document, since many scholars derive many information, why can't the same happen with Ovid.

en.wikipedia.org...

from the link above:

The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic poem from Babylonia and is among the earliest known literary works. A series of Sumerian legends and poems about the mythological hero-king Gilgamesh

Also, i have to add that Ovid in his Metamorphoses is influenced by the attitude of Prometheus to mock the gods through Amor (Amor, perhaps, = Prometheus, becouse both loved humans and always trick gods).

en.wikipedia.org...

Instead, the recurring theme, as with nearly all of Ovid's work, is that of love -- personal love or love personified as Amor (Cupid). Indeed, the other Roman gods are repeatedly perplexed, humiliated, and made ridiculous by Amor, an otherwise relatively minor god of the pantheon who is the closest thing this mock-epic has to an epic hero.

from the link:en.wikipedia.org...

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus. The word Lucifer was the direct translation of the Greek eosphorus ("dawn-bearer"; cf. Greek phosphorus, "light-bearer") used by Jerome in the Vulgate, having mythologically the same meaning as Prometheus who brought fire to humanity

What i am trying to say is that the ''fall of Lucifer'' looks alike the ''fall of Prometheus''

From the bible:
The serpent told man to taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge. When he did God replied ''you have the same ability with us, to judge and separate the good from evil'' meaning that till that time the humankind had no free will. At the same time God turned to the serpent and threw him away from ''paradise'': the fall of Lucipher. Isn't this the same with the ''Fall of Prometheus''?
Prometheus did the same thing. He spared humanking and give them the fire.
Fire=Civilization

Greece hardly even gets a mention in the old testament at all

What do you mean by that?

but any more speculation is pretty pointless

If i wouldn't made any more speculation why ,then, i am here if not to deny my ignorance? After all, the bible itself mention (i don't know where) to ''study the old writings''.

Don't tell me that the ''Epic of Gilgamesh'' is a historical document, since many scholars derive many information, why can't the same happen with Ovid.

Because Ovid was a roman and not a Greek so hes not too hot on Original Greek mythology and just the Roamnised version of it.
Its like trying to interpret original Hebrew beliefs by questioning a mormon
nobody said that the Epic of Gilgamesh was a historical document, I think you'd find it hard to find any scholar who believed that Gigamesh was 2/3 god had a best friend who started off living with the animals and who went on to defeat the guardian of the Cedar forest before travelling to see the flood hero finding the secret of eternal life and then losing it to a serpent on the way home. Gilgamesh is fictional. The story of Noah based on parts of it is fictional and Ovids Metamorphoses is also fictional

What do you mean by that?

how many Bible stories do you know that are set in Greece.
one of the reasons that the Bible was so popular in Greece was because it represented a totally foreign theology completely unlike the Greek theological belief system

If i wouldn't made any more speculation why ,then, i am here if not to deny my ignorance

as I already pointed out you are trying to deny your ignorance of Greek mythology by studying Roman Poetry
thats like trying to study a Big Mac by eating at Burger King
and I really doubt that you have read Ovids work anyway
because you clearly don't refer to any of it at any time in your post so you are claiming that you shouldn't be told not to read something which you had no intention of reading anyway
dictionary.reference.com...

and I really doubt that you have read Ovids work anyway

It is true that i haven't read this (to remain frank at high-shcool we didn't have library and i hope to find it from the Academy's one), that's why i provide links from Wikipedia.

Because Ovid was a roman and not a Greek so hes not too hot on Original Greek mythology and just the Roamnised version of it.

Isn't Roman mythology based on the Greek one? If i am not mistaken Romans adapted the Greek Pantheon and were very good experts of greek writings, as well. So much they have influenced from the hellenic way of life that some of the in high positions really afraid of this new way of life according to the ''spartan'' they were used at the beginning. I am not here to exalt the Hellenism just to support my sayings that this era many scripts weren't lost. Romans made copies of the original ones (tell me if i am wrong) meaning that they had the all the wealth of ancient manuscript today we don't. Lost? who knows? so Roman's writings remain a considerable source of information.

Gigamesh was 2/3 god had a best friend who started off living with the animals and who went on to defeat the guardian of the Cedar forest before travelling to see the flood hero finding the secret of eternal life and then losing it to a serpent on the way home. Gilgamesh is fictional. The story of Noah based on parts of it is fictional and Ovids Metamorphoses is also fictional

To this I feel bound to mention something. God= Θεός in Ancient Greek, but the word Θεός has three meanings:
1) A powerful being
2) the being that see everything
and the most important
3) a being that runs really fast

What tells me that Gilgamesh can't be considered a man who runs really fast?

Gilgamesh is fictional. The story of Noah based on parts of it is fictional and Ovids Metamorphoses is also fictional

According to you these wrightings sounds like fictional. If this is your point of view, fine. I see more than a science fiction story. I prefer to judge them thoroughly rather than get past them with the conscience that i threw a piece of information away.

etext.library.adelaide.edu.au...
knock yourself out
when you've read it all and understood it then you can quantify a statement based on it
Roman mythology is not based on Greek mythology
the Roamns adapted many of the greek gods to suit their purposes and then adapated many of the stories to suit their own needs. it is the same case with modern religion
how many christians for example know everything there is to know about hebrew traditions. if what you are claiming is right the average christian on the street should know what Hanukah is or how to recite the Torah

To this I feel bound to mention something. God= Θεός in Ancient Greek, but the word Θεός has three meanings:
What tells me that Gilgamesh can't be considered a man who runs really fast?

It doesn't matter what you think God means in greece
Gilgamesh was an akkadian character loosley based on a Sumerian king of the same name
My screen name is Marduk. it is loosely based on the God Bel Marduk but I am not divine either
Gilgamesh is a fictional story. If you've read (have you actually read it or not) it and don't think that it is then I'd love to know what you thought of Star Wars

According to you these wrightings sounds like fictional

don't just take my word for it
ask any qualified sumerologist for their opinion as well
they'd tell you the same thing

Originally posted by Dragonlike
That's really wierd, 'couse in school we assimilate a different idea.

THe thing is, the greek myths weren't stable and widespread. I've heard people remark that if you gave a copy of Bullfinch's greek mythology to people at the time, they wouldn't recognize the stories in it or anything like that.

While i am still in confusion, i tend to believe that Prometheus created man, something that explains the reason he pains for them, instead of the unwillingness of Zeus to help his creations.

It could be that in some places, that is how the myth is, and in other places, there are other workings.

Question: why Wikipedia call Prometheus Lucipher?

Lucifer is the 'light bearer'. Prometheus brings man light, he brings them fire and technology.

Really, does the symbol of a tricky man is snake? If it is...

Trickster gods are types that sort of play outside of the rules that everyone else does, or that seem silly and unimportant, but have done something that holds the universe together.

If that is true, then ''Devil'' is not a bad man, after all.

Its a story.

To stay frank, the quote above gives me the concept of an alien expansion to settle on planet earth

Why? If people are going to think about the creation of the world, then they're going to have a story about mankind being created by some other being, usually a god.

Also, it seems that this period Titans (Cronus, Prometheus) were is peace with Olympians

Yes. The Titans and the Olympians are different generations of gods. Some have hypothesized that the Titans are the gods of a people native to greece, and that the olympians are gods of a people that, in the depths of pre-history, invaded and conquered greece. SO the Titanomachy is a mythic telling of that historical event. Others have suggested that the Titans, being earthy gods with shammanic powers, who are defeated by the olypmians, from high atop their mountain with their king god, is a retelling of the switch from a primitive shamanic religion, to a more centralized and ordered type of religion.
There are lots of interpretations for what the greek myths 'mean'. And, again, it must be emphasized, the myths that we read in the usual collections, they are not the forms that were necessarily circulating amoung the actual greeks. And the greek myths have parralels with the ancient semitic religions, and the hittite religions, etc etc.

I am really confused

Its a confusing subject, so thats the proper state of mind. No one really understands and can explain all the myths very well. You might like to check out some stuff by Joseph Campbell
www.jcf.org...

Not just the website, but his books. Any library, like a school library, would have some of his stuff.

If you read that and like it, then you might like to check out stuff by this guy:
www.colorado.edu...
Claude Levi-Strauss. He used a 'structural method' to interprete and analyse myths. A high school library might not have anything by him. You might get one of his books, or if you have access to a research library, or Inter Library Loans for that matter (and high school ones might have that), you can get copies of academic articles he's written.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by Nygdan]

It seems that i have a lot to study...

By the way, thanks for the links... i shall read them right away and tell you my views.

Marduk you seem to have studied alot about middle east and near east religions. I don't understand it too much because I haven't had a real opertunity to study it. But I've been told that the Greeks say that they derived their religion from a land to the south/east of greece. (Middle east & Egyptian? I asking cause I don't know)

Those same people whom the greeks got their religion and pantheon of gods from say they got it from the east. All of it terminating in sumeria. I tentativly understand that the egyptians made the same statements too.

So my question is this. Do most of those religions in that overall region come about as decendants to the origional sumerian/akkadian religion and their panthion of gods? The reason I'm asking is because the relationship between Zeus and Prometheous sound similar to my recolection of Enlil and Enki's Relationship.

Originally posted by Dragonlike
Don't tell me that the ''Epic of Gilgamesh'' is a historical document, since many scholars derive many information, why can't the same happen with Ovid.

THe point is,just because ovid said something, doesn't mean that it was true. He was primarilyconcerned with making a poem, not a description of the mythology of the greeks and romans.

What i am trying to say is that the ''fall of Lucifer'' looks alike the ''fall of Prometheus''

What fall of lucifer? There is popular stories about Lucifer being the name of an angel that rebelled against god, was tossed into hell, and that he is now satan/the devil. Thats not in the bible. Its a traditional story. And there are variations on it. In the same way, there are many variations of hte greek myths.

meaning that till that time the humankind had no free will

They had free will, just not knowledge. If they had no free will, they wouldn't've eaten the apple.

At the same time God turned to the serpent and threw him away from ''paradise'': the fall of Lucipher

If you accept that the serpent in the garden is the devil, sure.

Isn't Roman mythology based on the Greek one?

Its really important to understand that there is no greek religion. There were small cults, with no controlling authority over them, and they're vary in their names, beleifs, practices, myths, etc, from place to place and over time. The romans didn't have no religion, then contact the greeks, get a copy of bullfinches mythology, and then say, 'this is good stuff, lets change the names though'. They had their own local traditions and beleifs in their city of Rome, and the other towns and villages and tribes in italy had their own traditions too. Some were similar to some of the myths amoung some of the greeks. And, similarly, some of the greek myths are similar to hittite myths, and to thracian myths, etc etc. As the Romans expanded and contacted different cultures, they realized that 'what hte greeks tend to call zeus, we call jupiter'. Even when they went into europe and made contact with the druids, they came back and said 'the druids worship mercury as the highest god, and mars as a lessor god, jupiter as another' etc etc. There were similarities between the myths of the different peoples, that allowed them to say 'what you call zeus, we call jupiter'. Indeed, this allows us to even postulate that there were connections that stretched from madrid to madrass. To the romans, Ju-Piter was the "father of the heavens', in sanskrit, something like 'deu-pitar' means 'sky father' (you'd have to check to get the exact working).
It doesn't mean that they directly picked up another people's religion. Its not like today, where there is a Jewish Bible, Christian Bible, a Muslim Bible, a Zoroastrian Bible, etc. There was no central book that detailed the tennents and history of the faith. You almost can't say that there was, in fact, a 'greco-roman religion'. There were many local religions, and they varied in their similarity.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by Nygdan]

Okay... "Lucifer" means "Light-bringer" and Prometheus brought light (fire) to humans... hence the Lucifer.

Also, Ovid's Roman. He's retelling a Greek myth.

Originally posted by Dragonlike
Isn't Roman mythology based on the Greek one?

Not entirely. They more or less merged the Greek gods into theirs, but in the details the gods are very different and in their approach to the gods it's very different.

Here's a page about this:
www.hol.gr...

What tells me that Gilgamesh can't be considered a man who runs really fast?

The original story, which was written in Sumerian cuneiform and not in Roman or Greek. It says he's 2/3 god.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I've been told that the Greeks say that they derived their religion from a land to the south/east of greece. (Middle east & Egyptian? I asking cause I don't know)
Those same people whom the greeks got their religion and pantheon of gods from say they got it from the east. All of it terminating in sumeria. I tentativly understand that the egyptians made the same statements too.

So my question is this. Do most of those religions in that overall region come about as descendants to the original sumerian/akkadian religion and their panthion of gods? The reason I'm asking is because the relationship between Zeus and Prometheous sound similar to my recolection of Enlil and Enki's Relationship.

I believe the Minoan Civilisation would have been a much more influential culture for ancient Greece, as well as being a top candidate for the Atlantis myth, oh please let's not go there though! Many pantheons overlap around the world, this is more to do with a common source in the Collective Unconscious as well as a primitive human interpretation of the natural world.

Humans have forever looked at nature and the heavens and wondered 'WTF?!?!'. We used 'gods' to explain the passing of time, the planets, stars, invisible weather, seasons, etc. Eg) It's 1250BC, you see a comet in the skies, you have no way of knowing wtf it is, so you interpret it as a message from the gods. What else you gonna do? Basically, if we didn't have a good reason for it, then we assigned it to the gods. We also assign the gods attributes to externalise our own psyche, so you have gods for every nuance - love, wisdom, deceit, vengeance, war, communication, etc.

To me, this resolves most of the similarities between seemingly unconnected pantheons. Even Christianity has a pantheon. There's an angel, demon, or saint for every occasion. Without science, there was only the supernatural.

I'd also like to point out that ancient Greek culture seems to have had a feedback influence on the middle-east. I think there is a strong case that Pythagorus, (who got many ideas from Egypt & the east), influenced groups such as the Essenes, who in turn are thought by some to have influenced the historical Jesus. The freemasons also seem to draw on the Pythagorean tradition.

Shar,

I agree that they got their religion from the Minoans, and hopefully not the Myceanians, but where did the minoans get their religion from, I was refering to in the long run where was the general trend toword the panthion of 12 gods come from? Did all the local civilizations get their ideas from the sumerians?

Some of the greeks would claim that greece was descended from or tutored by Egypt, but this wasn't so much a statement of history as it was propaganda. Egypt was ancient when greece was young. By saying they were descended from it, they were making a claim to greatness.

if you check your bible (the original source on Satan/Lucife) you will find that he is connected with figures from Mesopotamia only such as Nebuchadrezzar where his name was translated when the bible was translated into greek from his actual title (the morning star) into Lucifer. this is not to say by any means that anyone mentioned in the bible was Satan just that sometimes a lot gets lost in translation. Greece hardly even gets a mention in the old testament at all.

You are right.

lds-mormon.com...

I ignored that Lucifer is a Latin name given to the morning star= Venus and there was a mistranslation at the archives... and more... and more...

Have you got any idea of how many people consider Lucifer as Satan?
Why nobody correct it?

but where did the minoans get their religion from

Minoans were a civilization working on with trade. They had the largest fleet of that era and of course the had a powerful fleet to warranty o safe rout to destination lines. Perhaps, they received the pantheon of twelve from egypt. It is true that they were doing a lot of transactions with the egyptians and trade is also a transaction of culture.

Let's remember the Greek Alphabet. Was it absolute Greek? No, The Greek alphabet originated as a modification of the Phoenician alphabet and used it as their own. How they take it? Phoenician was a merchantile civilization and at their sails to Greece the gave them part of their civilization.

Throughout years civilizations always used to take ''things'' from other and adopted to their own. For that reason we can never speak of cultural parthenogenesis.

The same happened with religion, if we think that similarities between gods (e.g. Loki, Prometheus or Zeus and Jupiter) it seems that cultures ''exchanged gods''

Dear Nygdan,

I have read your link about the structural study of myth and i have some questions:

1) What's structural anthropology?

2)

represent a specific kind of structure

What kind of structure?

3)

these oppositions form the basic structure for all ideas and concepts in a culture

these oppositions confused me, can you explain a little?

4)

structural sameness

It must be a terminology i don't understand

5)

it is also language with the same structures that Saussure described belonging to any language

6)I find it hard to comprehend the ''reversible time'', ''binary oppositions'' and the ''linear time'' despite of reading the article again and again.

7)

While poetry is that which can't be translated, or paraphrased, Levi-Strauss says that myth can be translated, paraphrased, reduced, expanded, and otherwise manipulated--without losing its basic shape or structure. He doesn't use this term, but we might call that third aspect "malleability."

8)

bundles of relations

?????

10)

algebraic formulae

&

if you can express it in purely mathematical terms, it must be right, and universal, and objective

A myth can be explained with mathematical operations?

11)

it tells a story in layer after layer

????

He concludes that the structural method of myth analysis brings order out of chaos

I want to learn about structural method, so i would be more than grateful if you could explain me the questions above

Thanks for your attention

Originally posted by Dragonlike
Dear Nygdan,

I have read your link about the structural study of myth and i have some questions:

1) What's structural anthropology?

Basically, it's that people think about the world in very rigid terms... in "black and white", so to speak.

2)

represent a specific kind of structure

What kind of structure?

Here it's referring to a myth or an idea.

3)

these oppositions form the basic structure for all ideas and concepts in a culture

these oppositions confused me, can you explain a little?[/quote\

Cultures are defined as a set of objects, thought concepts, and teachings (I'm being kind of loose with the definition) that are transmitted from the parent to the children. As an aside, Levi-Strauss and many other great thinkers (Campbell) are Westerners, adn so they think in terms that Easterners (like Confucious) wouldn't use. For them, we have a thesis (main idea) antithesis (counterpoint) and synthesis (combining the two ideas).

Think of the idea of "womens' rights." The thesis (original view) is that they need to be cared for but not given any responsibility. The antithesis is "women should receive the same treatment and wages as men." The synthesis is an ever-moving compromise... women can now vote and hold porperty and so forth but don't always have the same opportunities as men. And so women will continue to push the issue until the synthesis provides what they all agree is equitable.

10)

algebraic formulae

&

if you can express it in purely mathematical terms, it must be right, and universal, and objective

A myth can be explained with mathematical operations?

11)

it tells a story in layer after layer

????

Fascinatingly, yes. In fact, he built 3 dimenstional models of myths.

His method of analysis (as is true with all anthropologists) is more complex than you see here. You have to know what purpose a concept or myth (or a group such as a business or a government) serves in society (for example, prejudices are a handy way of unthkingly analyzing the world.

Now, I don't always agree with his analyses (in some cases he bridges cultures that aren't associated (as with some of his analyses of AmerInd myths)) but he has some interesting approaches.

here's more about him and structural anthropology:
en.wikipedia.org...

www.marxists.org...

Here's an analysis that he did:
transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu...

Antrhopology is a fun and fascinating field of study.