Fast track NATO membership For Ukraine Like now!

a reply to: TheRedneck

Interesting conversation.

I wonder at what point does it become incumbent on the Western World to say no when one nation invades another?

As a hypothetical here and bear with me ...

Let's say, Sudbury, Ontario gets it into their heads that they want to become part of the US and leave Canada. 51% of their population votes to do just that. However, the rest of Canada is understandably opposed to that as is 49% of the people who live in Sudbury.

Then let's say the US, wanting some natural resource or another in Sudbury sends in US troops to secure Sudbury against the will of Canada. Would the US be in the wrong, or would Canada be in the wrong?

That explains where my head is at and why Putin is the bad guy here. He's invaded another country. No rational way around that I can see. If we did the same we would be insanely wrong as are Putin's actions.

If part of Ukraine wanted to become part of Russia that would all need to play out in Ukraine, involving only the Ukrainian people. Even if it led to civil war it's theirs to fight and no other countries' business, just as this was not Putin's business.

I admit I don't believe a word Putin has spewed about his reasons. He's power mad. He has grandiose dreams of reviving the former USSR IMO. He's just yet another Bozo in history who wants to rule the world. I don't get why so many seem fooled by that idiot. I'm beginning to see how Hitler had so many proponents just prior to WW2.

a reply to: Blaine91555

"That explains where my head is at and why Putin is the bad guy here. He's invaded another country. No rational way around that I can see. If we did the same we would be insanely wrong as are Putin's actions."



What would you call it if we then repeatedly threatened to nuke the planet because Sudbury fought back and our military got destroyed in laughable fashion?

How does them joining benefit anyone already in NATO?

Nobody even pays their way in NATO instead the US has to foot the bill.

Most of our allies don't even want standing armies.

a reply to: Lysergic

Ukraine joining NATO has one benefit. The Gazprom gas pipeline from Russia to Europe goes directly through Ukraine. With the current situation of gas shortages and winter coming, it might be some benefit to have Ukraine in NATO to secure more of the pipeline. Adding to the fact Nordstream is now rendered obsolete and most likely will never resume functionality due to sea water corrosion.

There is a very major risk here though, once in NATO, this region could bring forth the next major war.

a reply to: litterbaux

Thanks for the reply, that's what I worry about, it escalating much further because they join.

a reply to: Lysergic


russia already invaded and is threatening to nuke the planet because Ukraine fought back.

Not possible to 'escalate much further' than nuking the planet.



So the question is, will the madman nuke the planet because the country he repeatedly invaded joined a defensive alliance to prevent yet another invasion.

Nobody really knows.

He might nuke the planet tomorrow because someone undercooked his eggs.

Interesting that the UN rejected them, the US told them to slow down and wait and some European states seem to be thirsty for it.

Did Ukraine ignore the US, surely the US were told they were going to apply?
Or is it one big stage show, appearing like the US isnt running Zelenksy

a reply to: Blaine91555

You bring up some good points. I have to admit, I would be much more convinced about Crimea had Russia simply stood back and let the process play out. However, that is not always possible.

To return to your analogy, let's say the reason the people of Sudbury, Ontario wanted to secede is that they were being oppressed by Trudeau... that does happen, you know. It happened in the US South during Reconstruction. People were destitute and the only thing they had left, their land and homes, were legally stolen by Yankee businessmen (carpetbaggers) using underhanded tactics with full support of the US government. What would happen if the people of Sudbury, Ontario voted in the area of 90% to secede and become part of the US but Trudeau wouldn't allow the vote?

At what point does the invading country become less of an oppressor and more of a liberator?

I'll admit I don't know the answer to that and I don't claim to be an expert in Crimean/Ukrainian politics. I don't know what is going on over there. All I know is that

• No one knows what Putin is thinking except Putin
  
• Putin does have legitimate support among the Russian people (or did have at one time)
  
• Putin has not shown the kind of blanket aggression that marked characters like Hitler and Stalin
  
• I have not yet seen Putin threaten to nuke anyone, except as a last resort to protect Russia from an invasion by NATO. We would do the same.
  
• Russia has expressed legitimate national security concerns about NATO weapons being positioned on their border
  
• Ukraine has been at the very heart of USA government corruption
  
• Ukraine has a reputation of being corrupt itself
  
• The timing of events seems to me to be designed to provoke Russia
  
• The status of the Ukrainian military sounds too good to be true
  
• The status of the Russian military sounds unbelievable
  
• I can not dismiss all of the allegations against the USA in Ukraine
  
• Our own leaders seem hell-bent on sending massive amounts of money and hardware to Ukraine
  
• Ukraine has been in a state of a "cold civil war" for decades between the east and the west
  
• Russia captured two volunteers from Alabama I am familiar with. They were released in good condition and have since stated they were not abused. They have also stated that their capture was in no small part due to ineptness of the Ukrainian military.

I am not a supporter of Vladimir Putin. I am also not a supporter of Joe Biden and the present Democratic Party. Therefore I cannot in good conscience take a hardline stance on either side of this debate. My only concern is the future consequences of this conflict and how it is being handled.

My natural curiosity forces me to ask questions, many of which are apparently uncomfortable for others to answer.

TheRedneck

a reply to: litterbaux

What good does a pipeline do if there is no fuel to transport? Europe has rejected Russian fuel and pre-frozen any assets Russia might get as payment.

All Russian fuel must now be paid for directly in rubles, yuan, or gold.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Blaine91555

Your logic is so simple but so powerful.

In theory, one can understand that the West lost an opportunity when, after the Soviet collapse made greater efforts to end the east-west conflict rather than expand NATO.

But Putin’s point here just simply doesn’t justify an aggressive war on Ukraine. He had alternatives, and yes, his ego and power-hungry desires fuel him, and he thought he would have an easy victory.

What I find and people forget is that IF Trump hadn’t somewhat perversely not loved Putin so much and overtly expressed it, I believe we wouldn’t have much of this American right-wing support for him. Folks may not admit that, but in the back of their minds, I believe, that is what lies behind their support of him.

a reply to: TheRedneck

America has rejected Russian fuel for Europe. A freezing European wouldn't give a toss where their winter warmth is coming from.

originally posted by: GAOTU789
the people of Quebec got to chose for themselves.

We really do not know what would have happen if they got a majority yes vote since Candia's Supreme Court said the referendum was illegal. They also were voting to be independent and not connected to another country, so it was not like they said they wanted to join France. Anyone tell me... What country has allowed this? It total BS to even think it today. Would Russia let its rich oil lands become some new country, would China do the same, would America say it is OK that FL joins Cuba?

a reply to: peaceinoutz

What I find and people forget is that IF Trump...

Aaannnd,,, there it is. I wondered how many pages would pass before someone put up this absolutely and totally insane argument.

Very well. I have tried to discuss this topic calmly and rationally, but I see that attempt is in vain. Fine. I'll get my answers elsewhere. You have fun with your insanity and hallucinations. I'll not be demonized over something so ludicrous. What is to be, will be, and despite anything you try to say it will NOT be about Donald Trump when it happens.

Watch Romania. Stay out of Minnesota. Redneck out.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Ukraine has been at the very heart of USA government corruption

I had being trying to say this in my posts for a few times. Someone currently is trying to protect some secrets in Ukraine from leaking clearly.

They wouldn't being this desperate.

The timing of events seems to me to be designed to provoke Russia

Our North American leaders from both countries seem to be quite desperate and if anything very obsessive on further provoking Russia.

By keep referring on taking back Crimea.

For NATO/US Elitists was very important.
It shows they wanted Crimea to build a base there for NATO to keep Russia under their watch.. That is not something Russia would have allowed either way.

We currently have some crazes running our govs and politics dont we?

The status of the Ukrainian military sounds too good to be true

I would agree with you on that one

Ukraine has been in a state of a "cold civil war" for decades between the east and the west

The Elitists within US/EU hope to use Ukraine agaisnt Russia in their day dreaming of breaking up Russia causing riots and hoping that Russia breaks up into smaller states as Yugoslavia did.

They already had a decolonization of Russia conference.
With some NeoCons that were behind the wars in the ME/Middle East conflicts.

This is why Russia likely acted in Eastern Ukraine and Russia, China likely know more than we the public on certain issues.


Good to see those volunteers had returned safely and i hope they wont be easily mislead before deciding to go to war or conflict without research.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I just hope some crazes NeoCons, RINOs dont start pulling or start thinking of regime changes or color revolutions. China, Russia are both aware of these cold war polices.

There was this moment where this lithuanian PM begged Russians/Russian Protestors to over throw Putin/Russian gov in a plea for a regime change.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz

What I find and people forget is that IF Trump hadn’t somewhat perversely not loved Putin so much and overtly expressed it, I believe we wouldn’t have much of this American right-wing support for him. Folks may not admit that, but in the back of their minds, I believe, that is what lies behind their support of him.

All that was some BS propaganda from the left as part of their Russian hoax. Trump was indifferent to Russia as the left screamed they were the #1 enemy. Trump saw China as a bigger threat and that pissed off the left.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Trump still kept arming and supporting Ukraine at least the Ukrainian gov. And his own generals ignored his orders to leave Syria.

You have US forces that are still in Syria and with Syria accusing them of stealing the oil moving the oil into Iraq.

Trump was indifferent to Russia

Likely Trump himself was indifferent to Russia and likely more he never wanted anything to do or push a proxy war agaisnt Russia. But he did have bad people in his admin.

Who wanted this proxy war.


Remember John Bolton? the guy who kept saying we needed to bomb somebody anybody in Iran on Fox News?

originally posted by: vNex92
Someone currently is trying to protect some secrets in Ukraine from leaking clearly.

People keep saying Ukraine is the most corrupted country and I been around some real winners, so just what is this corruption we are talking about here. Seems no one can define it and just use some generic talking points. Much of the corruption seems to have been like 10+ years ago under Yanukovych who was a Russian puppet anyways, and since 2017 some big reforms have taken place.

originally posted by: vNex92
Remember John Bolton? the guy who kept saying we needed to bomb somebody anybody in Iran on Fox News?

I agree... But Trump himself was rather indifferent while still being somewhat concern.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Your fictional scenario is nothing but nonsense, you missed out the main player in all of this. The USA has been all over Ukraine for decades, funneling billions to promote regime change. For your scenario to be more relevant Russia would have to have installed a puppet government and Sudbury would have to have been attacked constantly killing thousands despite having come to an agreement with Canada. Not to mention the fact that Russia would then be able to set up weapons on the US border.