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Fast track NATO membership For Ukraine Like now!

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posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:39 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

Ukraine is not a third-part country in that situation. Closing the Nord Stream 2 forced Russia to use the Ukraine pipelines. That made Ukraine a first-part country in the conflict. Russia was trying to avoid having to deal with Ukraine because there had been nothing but conflicts since Russia started using their pipelines; Germany just made sure that couldn't happen.



I think your point is not a primary reason. EU needs Russian energy because they decided to rely on it more than any other, so are you suggesting Germany was just shooting themselves in the foot to become fully reliant and then make it so Russia can not get it to them?

This is more of an inconvenience then a reason with NS2. At the end of the day Putin still wants the old power of the USSR back with all the satellite countries back under Russia's control. Taking Ukraine with not much of a fight solved a lot of things to include direct access to EU with their energy without those pesky Ukrainians getting in the way. Gain all the recourses in Ukraine to use and increase their population by 44 million. It was a true win win for Putin until Ukraine started to fight back and EU did the unthinkable and decided to support and not buy Russian's energy even though it will be extremely painful to them. Putin's blunder was that he miscalculated that resolve to support.


edit on 1-10-2022 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: loveguy
locals version

foreign version

Both cases, the people chose which umbrella to stand under.

bandera Ukraine hero


The Current logo that Ukraine has as its national symbol dates back during the WW2 fascism era if only more start researching it.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Bigger share than in America and people always go on about the US MIC.

Anyway the point was Russia is a major arms exporter which it is (Or maybe was was, this war has been terrible for russian marketing.)


edit on 1-10-2022 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:45 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

I haven't heard one politician say the obvious which is "Hang on might not Russia just have a point here, These Russian-leaning portions of Ukraine might as well join Russia as a cost-effective change." Like Crimea, a Russian-administered area costs, how much Ukrainian manpower and western money have the conflict wasted so far in manpower, furthermore how much more is it going to cost, and with what return" The people of the area have voted, it has been condemned as a sham vote when in reality it is the way they voted if that gets ignored and casually brushed off as a sham, then what are elections for in this day and age. The lack of balanced news reporting says it all.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:49 PM
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a reply to: anonentity

Maybe Russia could have argued that point rather than invading.

Diplomacy and all that.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot


I already provided a link to why Germany cancelled the pipeline. Again based on Ryou do know ussian actions.

Again, why does Germany get to determine acceptable Russian troop movements inside Russia? Your link did not address that.


Europe isn't obliged to buy Russian Gas and Russia isn't entitled to use force if they don't.

I never said they did.

However, if Ukraine agrees to transport fuel from Russia to European countries who want to buy it, Ukraine is obligated at that point to comply with their agreement. As is Russia.


You do know Russia also invaded Georgia as well as Ukraine twice? Or maybe you don't ...

Yes, I know. Russia needed to get a pipeline through to Iran and Georgia was in the way. I didn't and don't agree with that action, but it's a little late to be hashing that over now. it is what it is.


Yes diplomacy would be good, let's start with that rather than invading neighbouring countries.

Diplomacy works two ways. It is not a one-way street. Never has been and never will be. The time to stop the invasion was before it occurred, when we were placing sanctions based on future expectations and trying to tell Russia where they could put their own troops in their own country.

Now we can still stop this if we want, but we'll have to stop escalating the conflict first and actually listen to Putin's concerns. It's one or the other; we cannot do both at the same time. Diplomacy does not include ignoring the other party until one gets everything they want.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: Xtrozero


are you suggesting Germany was just shooting themselves in the foot to become fully reliant and then make it so Russia can not get it to them?

Yes, I am.

I don't think they necessarily know they are shooting themselves in the foot, but knowing is not always a prerequisite to doing. Based on statements made by the German government in recent years, I don't think they have anyone there who knows what energy is, much less how to manage it.

Remember, it was only a few years ago that Germany was scolding the world for not going green and relying completely on renewables. Now look where that took them: powering up mothballed coal plants, the dirtiest power known to mankind, because those renewable plants can't operate without LNG backups.


At the end of the day Putin still wants the old power of the USSR back...

You lost me right there.

Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. Either way, neither you nor I know what Vladimir Putin is thinking. That is simply ridiculous and it is wearing thin very quickly. You are not a mind-reader. Stop trying to be one.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot


I already provided a link to why Germany cancelled the pipeline. Again based on Ryou do know ussian actions.

Again, why does Germany get to determine acceptable Russian troop movements inside Russia? Your link did not address that.


Europe isn't obliged to buy Russian Gas and Russia isn't entitled to use force if they don't.

I never said they did.

However, if Ukraine agrees to transport fuel from Russia to European countries who want to buy it, Ukraine is obligated at that point to comply with their agreement. As is Russia.


You do know Russia also invaded Georgia as well as Ukraine twice? Or maybe you don't ...

Yes, I know. Russia needed to get a pipeline through to Iran and Georgia was in the way. I didn't and don't agree with that action, but it's a little late to be hashing that over now. it is what it is.


Yes diplomacy would be good, let's start with that rather than invading neighbouring countries.

Diplomacy works two ways. It is not a one-way street. Never has been and never will be. The time to stop the invasion was before it occurred, when we were placing sanctions based on future expectations and trying to tell Russia where they could put their own troops in their own country.

Now we can still stop this if we want, but we'll have to stop escalating the conflict first and actually listen to Putin's concerns. It's one or the other; we cannot do both at the same time. Diplomacy does not include ignoring the other party until one gets everything they want.

TheRedneck


It wasn't about Russia placing troops in its own country, it was about them invading another. Turns out they were right.

Nordstreaam 2 didn't go through Ukraine, in fact Ukraine opposed it. Again how does cancelling it justify invading Ukraine?

The west had been asking for diplomacy all along. The choice to invade and continue the conflict is Putins.

The conflict stops when Putin withdraws.simple as that then we can have diplomacy.






edit on 1-10-2022 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot


Maybe Russia could have argued that point rather than invading.

The last time they tried arguing a case was when they claimed they had evidence of US-backed bio-labs in Ukraine illegally. Maybe they did; maybe they didn't. We'll never know because no one at the UN would even hear their evidence.

Again, diplomacy does not include ignoring the other party until you get everything you want.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot


Maybe Russia could have argued that point rather than invading.

The last time they tried arguing a case was when they claimed they had evidence of US-backed bio-labs in Ukraine illegally. Maybe they did; maybe they didn't. We'll never know because no one at the UN would even hear their evidence.

Again, diplomacy does not include ignoring the other party until you get everything you want.

TheRedneck


And that evidence is where exactly?



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck


russia did not try 'arguing a case'.


But I also wish they'd try.


That is not what they did at the UN, crayon drawings on napkins are not a 'case'.


russia *could* provide actual evidence today if they had any (they own teevee stations and internets), but they have not.



edit on 1-10-2022 by MidnightWatcher because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot


It wasn't about Russia placing troops in its own country, it was about them invading another.

Damn, are you just spinning around in circles? I thought we had agreed in this.

On February 22, 2022, were Russian troops on Russian soil or Ukrainian soil?


Nordstreaam 2 didn't go through Ukraine, in fact Ukraine opposed it. Again how does cancelling it justify invading Ukraine?

What? When did I ever say it did? I said the whole point of BOTH Nord Streams was to bypass Ukraine!

When Germany cancelled Nord Stream 2, it forced Russia to keep using Ukrainian pipelines.


The west had been asking for diplomacy all along. The choice to invade and continue the conflict is Putins.

Applying sanctions for actions not yet taken, threatening assets, ignoring or misrepresenting statements made, and talking trash is not diplomacy.


The conflict stops when Putin withdraws.simple as that then we can have diplomacy.

I pray cooler heads than your prevail. With that statement, we can never have diplomacy and the world will end in a nuclear fireball.

Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is surely quite proud of you.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot


And that evidence is where exactly?

Who knows? The UN never even accepted it.

Had they simply looked at the evidence, it would be available for everyone to see. If it was, as MidnightWatcher claims, laughable and unconvincing, everyone would know that. So what did it benefit the UN or the USA (who opposed hearing the evidence quite vociferously) to not hear it? If the evidence was as bad as it is said to be, it didn't benefit anyone; it actually made the UN and USA look bad. If, however, there was actual evidence, it would benefit the USA and the UN to ignore it.

I haven't seen it, so all I can do is speculate.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot


It wasn't about Russia placing troops in its own country, it was about them invading another.

Damn, are you just spinning around in circles? I thought we had agreed in this.

On February 22, 2022, were Russian troops on Russian soil or Ukrainian soil?


Nordstreaam 2 didn't go through Ukraine, in fact Ukraine opposed it. Again how does cancelling it justify invading Ukraine?

What? When did I ever say it did? I said the whole point of BOTH Nord Streams was to bypass Ukraine!

When Germany cancelled Nord Stream 2, it forced Russia to keep using Ukrainian pipelines.


The west had been asking for diplomacy all along. The choice to invade and continue the conflict is Putins.

Applying sanctions for actions not yet taken, threatening assets, ignoring or misrepresenting statements made, and talking trash is not diplomacy.


The conflict stops when Putin withdraws.simple as that then we can have diplomacy.

I pray cooler heads than your prevail. With that statement, we can never have diplomacy and the world will end in a nuclear fireball.

Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is surely quite proud of you.

TheRedneck


You seen obsessed with the fact it was 2 days later before they actually crossed the border. Do you think the whole invasion was decided on, organised and supplied in 2 days?

Again how does that justify invading Ukraine? Hint it doesn't.

Cooler heads need to prevail in Russia as its them invading.

And do yourself a favour and stop the childish attempts at insults They reflect badly on you, no one else.






edit on 1-10-2022 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: MidnightWatcher

Russian TV would do me no good; I do not speak Russian. Last I heard, Internet access in Russia was severely limited due to the sanctions... sounds mighty convenient to me.

Besides, this was a case for the UN. What are you and I going to do except start calling Mr. Know-it-all No-pants a liar on an Internet forum? We don't have jurisdiction or even consideration over Ukrainian forces.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot


And that evidence is where exactly?

Who knows? The UN never even accepted it.

Had they simply looked at the evidence, it would be available for everyone to see. If it was, as MidnightWatcher claims, laughable and unconvincing, everyone would know that. So what did it benefit the UN or the USA (who opposed hearing the evidence quite vociferously) to not hear it? If the evidence was as bad as it is said to be, it didn't benefit anyone; it actually made the UN and USA look bad. If, however, there was actual evidence, it would benefit the USA and the UN to ignore it.

I haven't seen it, so all I can do is speculate.

TheRedneck


So you are relying entirely on the word of the Russian government, which we know without doubt lied about the invasion for weeks beforehand.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: MidnightWatcher

Russian TV would do me no good; I do not speak Russian. Last I heard, Internet access in Russia was severely limited due to the sanctions... sounds mighty convenient to me.

Besides, this was a case for the UN. What are you and I going to do except start calling Mr. Know-it-all No-pants a liar on an Internet forum? We don't have jurisdiction or even consideration over Ukrainian forces.

TheRedneck



russian teevee can easily present 'evidence' in any language you like.

Limited yes, by the same russian government that refused to provide any evidence to back up it's claims. Coincidence?

I'd be happy if they brought any actual evidence to the UN, they have not done that.




They haven't provided to tucker either.

Pro aljazeera, or the 'press' in china, or iran, or Brazil, or any other country that's friendly with russia would work too.

Or even posting a single piece of evidence on even a russian web site.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:33 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot


You seen obsessed with the fact it was 2 days later before they actually crossed the border. Do you think the whole invasion was decided on, organised and supplied in 2 days?

Because there was no reason to apply sanctions until Russia actually invaded. Everything before that was instigation, not retaliation.


Again how does that justify invading Ukraine?

I am not going to keep repeating myself. If you don't understand my last two responses to that question, you never will.


Cooler heads need to prevail in Russia as its them invading.

Cooler heads need to prevail, period.

Ultimatums are not diplomacy.


stop the childish attempts at insults

I'd like to know when in this thread I have insulted you. I am actually trying desperately not to do so. I will admit it is hard when you keep parroting debunked statements and ignoring anything that goes against your "Russia evil" agenda.

TheRedneck



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

You lost me right there.

Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. Either way, neither you nor I know what Vladimir Putin is thinking. That is simply ridiculous and it is wearing thin very quickly. You are not a mind-reader. Stop trying to be one.

TheRedneck


His Words...

"The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century."

Ukraine was also the crown jewel of the USSR, and even today Russia doesn't recognize them as a country and just sees them as a part of Russia, so I'm not reading minds here.


I truly believe that Putin thinks all this and that is why he rolled in to Ukraine with his halfass invasion that failed. He really thought he could roll into Kiev with very little resistance to maybe women throwing flowers and cheering as his troops rolled down the main streets in celebration of Ukraine once again Russian. lol

That didn't happen and the big wheel started to turn to what we see today, but if it did go that way EU and America would not have lifted a finger.



posted on Oct, 1 2022 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: MidnightWatcher

Russian TV would do me no good; I do not speak Russian. Last I heard, Internet access in Russia was severely limited due to the sanctions... sounds mighty convenient to me.

Besides, this was a case for the UN. What are you and I going to do except start calling Mr. Know-it-all No-pants a liar on an Internet forum? We don't have jurisdiction or even consideration over Ukrainian forces.

TheRedneck


You could check your claims for a change.

www.datacenterdynamics.com...


Restrictions on Russian Internet are put in place by the Russian government.

en.m.wikipedia.org...#:~:text=Since%202012%2C%20Russia%20maintains%20a,domain%20names%2C%20and%20IP%20addresse s.







 
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