Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny...?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Isaiah 33:14 is especially easy to deal with when you realize that God lives in fire and burnings. It is His nature - remember that He dwells in "inapproachable light"? We must be glorified before we can endure His presence, and that glory is part of the light, fire and burning of God.

While God does also use fire to "refine", what does he do with those he chooses not to?

Zechariah 13: 8 - 9

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

Okay. I've re-read my post. I didn't mention Judaism. Judaism is like Christianity, split up into various sects, some believe one way and some believe another way.

Actually Pthena what you should have done was explain that the Jews were separated from all other Middle Eastern religions until the fall of Jerusalem, when they were carried away into slavery, after repairing the temple they repledged to their own unique way and continued their unique monotheism.

When the Northern tribes of Israel fell to Syria, the Samaritan’s (northern tribes) became a separate nation as alien A&NE faiths were forced on Northern Israel.

Simply what you should never have said is the Hebrews adopted religions and faiths from surrounding cultures, they never did and never have still
40 Years Wandering the desert, 40 years spiritually distancing themselves from Egypt, 40 years learning to rely on YHWH and you assume, state categorically they adopted foreign cultures.

The Inanna story, related? where, when and how, never heard the story and know it’s not even remotely related to Jesus, you can’t just say things, clearly you havnt a clue and you “just saying things” is wholly unreliable
You can’t watch zeitgeist the movie and say “wow that must all be true” and repeat it as fact. That movie lied, a lot.

As for hell and it not existing, no! I can’t accept you got so much wrong before and then state there is no hell, what evidence.
It seems your other beliefs are flawed
www.hellhadesafterlife.com...
Scholars have debated this for at least a couple of Millenia, but you, you make out you know

Are you a jw?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

None of those verses specify a place of eternal, conscious torment, known as "hell" - it is read or assumed. For the threatening language, you should try the same verses in other versions/translations.

Let's look at Daniel 12:2 again...

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I looked up EVERY translation available on Biblegateway, and not one of them said anything other than suffering from shame and contempt "everlasting", "eternal", "forever" or "will never end".

There will be no need for shame or contempt in God's kingdom, so they must be going somewhere, even if it's not called "hell" or any other name you want to place on it.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I started another thread to explain that somewhat.
Pagan is a derogatory word which almost means country bumkin(ignorant) as opposed to civilized. The stories were produced by the highest, most educated, from within the civilizations of their times.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Isaiah 33:14 is especially easy to deal with when you realize that God lives in fire and burnings. It is His nature - remember that He dwells in "inapproachable light"? We must be glorified before we can endure His presence, and that glory is part of the light, fire and burning of God.

While God does also use fire to "refine", what does he do with those he chooses not to?

Zechariah 13: 8 - 9

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

We don't know exactly HOW God accomplishes His ends, but we know from First Corinthians 15:28 that He saves all - otherwise He could not be All in all. You may need to examine more verses, and from other translations to arrive at a balanced view on this topic.

a reply to: pthena

So a quick study on the Inanna myth, it’s relevance to Jesus.
Seems pretty tenuous at best, at best
I have had to deal with so many of these ignorant arguments, people who watched zeitgeist and believed everything when clearly they wanted to believe the movie and never questioned anything said

amateurexegete.com...

Your comprehension of christianity and Judaism is naive, flawed, blaming your argument on minor Jewish sects that for the most part are irrelevant and only started well after the diaspora, just so flawed
I don’t pretend to know paganism so rarely comment, maybe I will ask a question but rarely comment.
Learn from that

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

None of those verses specify a place of eternal, conscious torment, known as "hell" - it is read or assumed. For the threatening language, you should try the same verses in other versions/translations.

Let's look at Daniel 12:2 again...

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I looked up EVERY translation available on Biblegateway, and not one of them said anything other than suffering from shame and contempt "everlasting", "eternal", "forever" or "will never end".

There will be no need for shame or contempt in God's kingdom, so they must be going somewhere, even if it's not called "hell" or any other name you want to place on it.

Daniel 12:2 from the Young's Literal: "And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during." I looked in Biblehub.com.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I don’t think God will save all based on those who reject Him.
Can God force people to love Him, is that love?

I am assuming you accept universal salvation? And I can’t/won’t argue universal salvation but, in my opinion it fails because God can’t force His will without abusing love.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

We don't know exactly HOW God accomplishes His ends, but we know from First Corinthians 15:28 that He saves all - otherwise He could not be All in all. You may need to examine more verses, and from other translations to arrive at a balanced view on this topic.

1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't say he saves all. It only says that everyone who is still left after Jesus has put all of God's enemies under his feet, including death, will then become all in all.

You need to read Revelation 20 & 21. Here is a couple of verses that will help you...

Revelation 21:7-8

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

I don’t think God will save all based on those who reject Him.
Can God force people to love Him, is that love?

I am assuming you accept universal salvation? And I can’t/won’t argue universal salvation but, in my opinion it fails because God can’t force His will without abusing love.

You may be surprised to know that I am a Christian Universalist (not UU) AFTER study of the KJV, of all versions. In response to your "I don't think..." and "...in my opinion...," I believe God has ways you and I are unaware of. He must have a way or ways to turn His enemies, for if He cannot, He can never become All in all...yet He will become so.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

We don't know exactly HOW God accomplishes His ends, but we know from First Corinthians 15:28 that He saves all - otherwise He could not be All in all. You may need to examine more verses, and from other translations to arrive at a balanced view on this topic.

1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't say he saves all. It only says that everyone who is still left after Jesus has put all of God's enemies under his feet, including death, will then become all in all.

You need to read Revelation 20 & 21. Here is a couple of verses that will help you...

Revelation 21:7-8

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

OK, but I did not find much support for annihilationism in the Bible. Remember that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is the presense of God. Fire is His nature, and brimstone would have been readily understood by John's readers in the first century as a fumigant and purifier. It really becomes very clear when you get deep under the surface of the text.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
But
Satan, it’s demons are eternal so, where do they go
Humanity was not created to be eternal so they shall burn away up to nothing, gone, forgotten, nothing left, vanish to eternal shame as the bible states

As for eternal creatures, demons, what is your solution for their banishment?

All men are created in the likeness of God they have a limited Body, a temporary spirit and a Eternal soul.

This is why Jesus Christ said men shall go to the lake of fire the place that was created for The Devil and his angels.

Mt 25:1-41 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You see he says they will go into EVERLASTING fire not just burned up quickly and then no more. And in Revelation it teaches the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever before him in Rev. That is the false doctrine of Annihilationism taught by JW's.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

OK, but I did not find much support for annihilationism in the Bible. Remember that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is the presense of God. Fire is His nature, and brimstone would have been readily understood by John's readers in the first century as a fumigant and purifier. It really becomes very clear when you get deep under the surface of the text.

After reading those verses in Revelation above, you have to be pretty dense to believe that the particular fire and brimstone being talked about translates into God. Those who are thrown into the "lake" will NOT be sons of God as stated in the previous verse. That's some twisted logic you've got there.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Its not just taught by JW,org CJ, it was taught by some church fathers as well

reknew.org...
I suggest you read Boyds dissertation if you want to at least understand the argument, though I wont say your opinion is incorrect, I dont know

I dont presume to say I know but I believe in annihilationism, dont care what JW,org says, I have formed my own view without their help thanks. I am not a JW and despise the cult as a crime ring of pedophile supporters

"Everlasting fire" Everlasting fire is not everlasting life, its not everlasting torture, its also not everlasting pain, its only everlasting fire.

Hope that makes sense and you are prepared to at least engage in understanding

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Laz this issue has been kicked around for two thousand years at least
Its not a salvation issue, its spit balling at best

I have considered all three options over a decade at least and am content with my reasoning, still could be wrong, God can and does surprise us. who knows

a reply to: Raggedyman

"Everlasting fire" Everlasting fire is not everlasting life, its not everlasting torture, its also not everlasting pain, its only everlasting fire.

Revelation 14:9-11

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Well, so far we know that some will be at least raised to experience everlasting shame, contempt, and no rest. I guess it's up to each individual whether or not they would consider that some kind of torture.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Raggedyman

Well, so far we know that some will be at least raised to experience everlasting shame, contempt, and no rest. I guess it's up to each individual whether or not they would consider that some kind of torture.

Everlasting shame and contempt is separation from God, total annihilation brings shame and contempt. The rest christians are offered is when we are with God, being with God is heaven, is rest. Those annihilated dont receive this rest, they are annihilated.
also remember these are Greek words so their meaning and translation needs to be considered.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

OK, but I did not find much support for annihilationism in the Bible.

Have you considered Malachi 4:1-3?

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, a and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

- Berean Study Bible

I can understand the pull of Universalism, the desire to be inclusive for all.
I don't think the Bible favors that though.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Lazarus Short

OK, but I did not find much support for annihilationism in the Bible.

Have you considered Malachi 4:1-3?

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, a and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

- Berean Study Bible

I can understand the pull of Universalism, the desire to be inclusive for all.
I don't think the Bible favors that though.

Yes, I considered Malachi 4:1-3 - be aware that I considered every book, chapter and verse in the KJV. The Bible seems to teach Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism...but it's all in the choice of verses you might care to quote. My carefully considered opinion, after looking deeply at the text, is that Damnationism is a product of bias and bad translation, Annihilationism is a product of attention to too few selected verses, but, Universalism is the overall slant of the Message God is sending our way.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Laz this issue has been kicked around for two thousand years at least
Its not a salvation issue, its spit balling at best

I have considered all three options over a decade at least and am content with my reasoning, still could be wrong, God can and does surprise us. who knows

The salvation of all is not a salvation issue? Come again...?

When it comes to God, you should expect the unexpected.