Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny...?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

it is not what I believe it is clear Bible.

What I can tell it is not about your understanding it, you have a problem with believing it, just as it is written, where it is written.

CJ, I understand what you believe, accept what you believe just disagree
A true sign of weakness is not accepting other people can have a different opinion.
You are not god

a reply to: Lazarus Short

n Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell.

You added one too many heavens in your OP.
God created only the one heaven on the first day. The second heaven was created on the second day. Sheol was created for all spirits of the dead souls.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Lazarus Short

n Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell.

You added one too many heavens in your OP.
God created only the one heaven on the first day. The second heaven was created on the second day. Sheol was created for all spirits of the dead souls.

Some versions have "heaven" and some have "heavens." Others just state that God made the universe. Take your pick. A second heaven is still covered by the plural. I didn't notice the creation of sheol, but it would not been a thing before the fall of Adam & Eve.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I suppose you believe the dead, if they are lost, stay dead in the SECOND DEATH. However, consider that God tells us that He is a God of the living, not the dead. Consider that if He really is ALL in all, that He may truly be, especially if death is the last enemy to be destroyed. You can't have it both ways, you can't have both death being destroyed and some dead staying dead. God is not a God of confusion...

..
Yes and No. Dead only applies to the terrestrial body. All terrestrial bodies die. The second death only applies to the unsaved spirit. Once the terrestrial body dies it is gone forever. It returns to the elements of this universe.

Death is the last last enemy because once all of the world is vaporized that takes care of the terrestrial bodies or first death. Once all of the unsaved spirits have met their second death then death is no longer a purpose and is also destroyed. That is the last and final use of death.

God is the God of the living thereafter because death is no longer present. All that will be left is the saved spirits who then get a new body and a new name to live forever. The saved spirit with a new body is no longer under the threat of death because death has been destroyed.

Jesus then hands over all power and authority back to the Father from whence it came. God will be the God of all of the living thereafter.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I found something interesting: The Parable of the Unjust Steward: Luke 13

He also said to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his possessions. And he called him and said to him, ‘What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your management, for you can no longer be manager.’ And the manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg. I have decided what to do, so that when I am removed from management, people may receive me into their houses.’ So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ He said, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ He said to him ‘Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.’ Then he said to another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ He said, ‘A hundred measures of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill, and write eighty.’ The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

They (sons of this world) seem to have eternal dwellings. Compare with: "In my Father's house are many mansions..."

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Lazarus Short

I suppose you believe the dead, if they are lost, stay dead in the SECOND DEATH. However, consider that God tells us that He is a God of the living, not the dead. Consider that if He really is ALL in all, that He may truly be, especially if death is the last enemy to be destroyed. You can't have it both ways, you can't have both death being destroyed and some dead staying dead. God is not a God of confusion...

..
Yes and No. Dead only applies to the terrestrial body. All terrestrial bodies die. The second death only applies to the unsaved spirit. Once the terrestrial body dies it is gone forever. It returns to the elements of this universe.

Death is the last last enemy because once all of the world is vaporized that takes care of the terrestrial bodies or first death. Once all of the unsaved spirits have met their second death then death is no longer a purpose and is also destroyed. That is the last and final use of death.

God is the God of the living thereafter because death is no longer present. All that will be left is the saved spirits who then get a new body and a new name to live forever. The saved spirit with a new body is no longer under the threat of death because death has been destroyed.

Jesus then hands over all power and authority back to the Father from whence it came. God will be the God of all of the living thereafter.

Here is my view:

DUST, BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL

What are we, anyway? What happens to us when we die? Versions of “you’ll have pie in the sky when you die” are common, and mourners are consoled with the idea that their lost loved one is in “a better place.” Just like the harp-on-a-cloud version of Heaven, the Bible says nothing like this, but holds out the Promise of the Resurrection. I propose that before we consider the afterlife, we need a proper understanding of body, soul, and spirit – how we were made.

It's easy to miss what's going on in Genesis when God made Adam, so let's look at those few, meaningful words: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul.”
(Genesis 2:7 KJV II).

First, God took some dirt (in fact, the Miao people refer to Adam as the "Patriarch Dirt"): “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground…” (Genesis 2:7, KJV II).

Dirt/dust --> [God made it into] --> a lifeless body.

OK, we've got a body, and we can’t even call it dead, as it has not yet lived, but: “…God…breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7, KJV II).

Lifeless body --> [God breathes into it the Breath/Spirit of Life] --> Adam, a living soul, a living person with breath.

Simplified, we have:

body + breath/spirit = soul.

Now we've got a soul, which by the implied Biblical definition, is the living, breathing person, not some ineffable, ethereal thing that the person has or possesses. Also implied, is that you do not HAVE a soul, but that you ARE a soul. This is widely misunderstood.

Still with me? I tell you, it's hard to make people understand this! It's a mindset, a stronghold, but we need to understand it in the way God sets it out, not the way the world does. I believe the rest of the Bible uses this understanding of "soul" consistently, and this understanding makes some passages of the Bible plain, which otherwise are confusing.

To deepen your understanding, let's reverse the process. When you die, a lot of things happen, such as the heart and pulse stopping and brain activity stopping, but ultimately decomposition, the returning to dust, is the final marker. The Biblical view equates life with having breath, so I'm going to stick with that as being the death indicator.

Made simple: soul - breath = body.

Expanded a bit, we get:

living person (soul) - life (breath) = dead/lifeless body.

It's just the making of Adam in reverse, and what do we end up with? One thing implied by the proper Biblical understanding of body, spirit, and soul may surprise you.

The Breath/Spirit returns to God, Who gave it. It belongs to Him, and since it is most certainly one of the seven Spirits of God, it is part of Him. That being so, it doesn't go to Hell if it's part of God, does it? To say so is close to blasphemy, in my opinion. Now, in case you are wondering about the Seven Spirits, we have information in Isaiah 4:4, Isaiah 11:2, and in the Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5 and 5:6.

After death, the body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. As God Himself said, “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground. For out of it you were taken – for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” (Genesis 3:19, KJV II). That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of being in the grave - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to an eternity in Hell, is there? The idea seems absurd to me.
Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, just as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything - it's just like a chemical molecule when it is broken up into its component atoms. Poof! Consider a water molecule undergoing electrolysis - the hydrogen bubbles off the cathode, and oxygen bubbles off the anode. Asking where the soul went is as pointless as asking where the water went. For the Soul to be alive in Hell, it must be remade by putting Breath/Spirit back into a body - but then you’ve got that part of God in Hell again, absurd and blasphemous. I suspect that those who preach and teach Hell have not thought the matter through to the end. However, I hope I have demonstrated that eternal, conscious torment in Hell is utterly impossible, just as I have shown in previous chapters that Hell itself is Biblically non-existent.

So there you are – of Spirit, Body, or Soul, none can be sent to Hell. For those who insist that God can resurrect people and send them to Hell, I can only reply on two levels. First, advocates of Eternal Torment have misunderstood the character of a loving God. The God of the Bible is a God of the living, not the dead. At some point, as written in the Revelation, both Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Further, we are told that Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (I Corinthians 15:26). Two verses later, we are told that God will become All in all.

This leads us to two of the three questions I asked earlier in this book:

How can anyone be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed?

If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, how can God become All in all?

The only conclusion this writer can come to is the taunt of I Corinthians 15:54-55: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

continued...

It really is that simple. Note that I am not saying people will escape responsibility for their evil works, or be punished for them. I am saying that a loving God punishes for a purpose, and for a time, not for torment’s sake and not for eternity. Keep in mind the principle of the Law of the Jubilee, which states that at a set time, all debts are cancelled, and everyone in bondage goes home free to their lands and homes. God instituted the Jubilee for an ancient society, but it points to a future where everyone will have their sins forgiven, and go free of the bondage of sin to enjoy their inheritance, as co-heirs with Jesus the Christ. This will certainly involve the New Earth, and possibly the New Heavens as well. The Law of the Jubilee may be found in Leviticus 25:8-16.

Secondly, Hell, as most people think of it, is a concept but not a reality. Let me explain. For the first few centuries AD, the doctrine of universal salvation was orthodox, especially in the eastern churches. However, with many pagans coming into the body of believers, pagan mindsets and ideas came in as baggage with them. Former ideas and concepts were (and are!) hard to get rid of, and began to color Christian theology and Biblical understanding. Little by little, Sheol became thought of more and more as being like Hades, Hel and Hell. The Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, began to replace the Biblical concept of death and resurrection. Immortality of the soul also made eternal life in a place of fire possible in the minds of men. Oddly, lots of Christians today subscribe to both the idea of the Immortal Soul, and death and resurrection at the same time. Most never see the contradiction. In time, these concepts also affected Bible translations, so that we see words translated as “Hell” which mean no such thing. There are good translations not containing the word at all. I have found that, in the centuries since the concept of Hell entered Christianity, that all the literature on the subject has been theological (I prefer “theo-illogical”) speculation or fiction. Yes, fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton, to the prose of Mary K. Baxter and many, many movies and “Ewetoob” videos. None of it can be verified, as far as I know, but we should trust the Word of God, in a translation not steeped in medieval theology.
Here's how our reconciliation with God goes, as the eons pass:

dirt --> [God makes it into] --> a body

body --> [God gives it a bit of His Spirit/Breath] --> a soul

soul --> [God gives it more Spirit (the Earnest)] --> a justified soul

justified soul --> [God gives it the fullness of the Seven Spirits after death and resurrection] --> a Glorified Soul

All done, rest and eternity ensue.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Lazarus Short

I found something interesting: The Parable of the Unjust Steward: Luke 13

He also said to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his possessions. And he called him and said to him, ‘What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your management, for you can no longer be manager.’ And the manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg. I have decided what to do, so that when I am removed from management, people may receive me into their houses.’ So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ He said, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ He said to him ‘Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.’ Then he said to another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ He said, ‘A hundred measures of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill, and write eighty.’ The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

They (sons of this world) seem to have eternal dwellings. Compare with: "In my Father's house are many mansions..."

The parable is in Luke 16, not 13. I would put a universalist slant on it.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The parable is in Luke 16, not 13. I would put a universalist slant on it.

I'm glad you found it. I can't explain how I got the chapter number wrong.
Probably overexcitement.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I propose that before we consider the afterlife, we need a proper understanding of body, soul, and spirit – how we were made.

Thanks for your input but some of it is not biblical.

John_5:45,46 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

God has shown this creation that He is in two parts, that being Spirit and Word. We are made after this pattern being the Word which is His image and His Spirit which is His likeness.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

The Word created Adam in His image [soul] and the Father then gave His portion of His spirit [likeness] and the dead soul became a living soul. There is no other mention of these two actions given by Moses. Both actions differ in that one is terrestrial and the other spiritual

1Corinthians 15:44,45 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I admit that i have read a few Christian accounts of multiple portions of Adam's substance but it is not biblical to my knowledge.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The only thing your argument proves is that unrighteous souls are destroyed and never live again to spend eternity with Jesus. None of what you have stated proves universal salvation and eternal life for all.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

The only thing your argument proves is that unrighteous souls are destroyed and never live again to spend eternity with Jesus. None of what you have stated proves universal salvation and eternal life for all.

So, how do you derive an annihilationist conclusion from a universalist argument? I looked at every verse in the KJV, and found only a little support for the annihilationist position.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So, how do you derive an annihilationist conclusion from a universalist argument?

Uh, I came to that conclusion from your argument when you said this...

After death, the body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. As God Himself said, “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground. For out of it you were taken – for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” (Genesis 3:19, KJV II). That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of being in the grave - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to an eternity in Hell, is there? The idea seems absurd to me.

Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, just as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything

There's nothing in the Bible that says that the soul decays along with the body. However, the Bible does say this...

Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And while you may not believe in "hell", the verse clearly states that the soul is not able to be "killed", but it can be "destroyed".

a reply to: Deetermined

In your quote of my material, you left out two essential components.

The Spirit - the breath/spirit of Life which God breathed into the body/bodies He had made. It returns to Him upon the death of the air-breather.

The Resurrection - the event in which the body is re-created and filled with the Spirit of Life. The non-eternal Soul which went "poof" at death, comes into existence again.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So, what is your interpretation of Matthew 10:28?

Where in the Bible does it say that souls are non-eternal and go in and out of existence with a "poof"?

Easy:

Revelation 16:3 KJV

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Ragman, remember there is only one side to truth. And God's word is truth just as it is written, where it is written, as it is found written. If it can't be understood literally then and only then should it be spiritualized.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Easy:

Revelation 16:3 KJV

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

The living souls that died in the sea belong to the beast who rose up from there as stated in Revelation 13.

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

Ragman, remember there is only one side to truth. And God's word is truth just as it is written, where it is written, as it is found written. If it can't be understood literally then and only then should it be spiritualized.

Again no CJ
I abhor what you preach and teach, find it disgusting, anti christian
There was no bible for a few hundred years and Christianity flourished, no KJV for over a thousand and Christianity still grew.
We have progressed Fien and can get along fine without your beliefs, thanks CJ...
But, no thanks

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

Ragman, remember there is only one side to truth. And God's word is truth just as it is written, where it is written, as it is found written. If it can't be understood literally then and only then should it be spiritualized.

Again no CJ
I abhor what you preach and teach, find it disgusting, anti christian
There was no bible for a few hundred years and Christianity flourished, no KJV for over a thousand and Christianity still grew.
We have progressed Fien and can get along fine without your beliefs, thanks CJ...
But, no thanks

Yes Christianity flourished in each generation and it was the Bibles of the Textus Receptus that they used or the Syrian text. the text for our generation is the Textus Receptus as found in the KJV.

Again more of the problems out there is not understanding but rather just BELIEVING it where it is written, how it is written, as it is written.

Take it literal first. Remember ALL scripture as three interpretations Historical, Doctrinal and Spiritual. But when a Bible verse says something is real and someones opinion says it is not real. Who are we to believe? I will take God's words over mans any day. You see a mans opinion is the doctrine of men. The Bible as it says it, where it says it is pure Bible truth and doctrine.

Ah and unlike you I said all that without besmirching you personally.