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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Lazarus Short
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short
If there were lost chapters it would. But there are none.
I happen to have a copy, but you judge from not knowing. Once again, your KJV is short of perfect.
I don’t know why but talking to kjv only supporters is like talking to Jehovah Witnesses, they just seem to have a deep conviction in someone else’s opinion beyond normal.
Someone else has made their mind up for them. The kjv becomes the same as JW,orgs NWT, is the best. Be like watching two cats at each other that argument
I have a high opinion of the Bible, but the KJV has its failings. Even so, I usually quote from it. Yet, I dug into the KJV to decide between hell, annihilation and universalism. By the time I finished, I was a confirmed universalist. YMMV. Good news! If you are not a universalist, you still get saved. It's a sort of fail-safe.
In the case of the wheat and chaff and the wheat and tares, you assume the wheat are the righteous, and the chaff/tares are the unrighteous. I came to realize that the wheat and the chaff are parts of the SAME seed, only separated when threshed. The wheat/tare contrast is less marked, but you will find the key in First Corinthians 3, where works, NOT PERSONS are burned.
originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short
In the case of the wheat and chaff and the wheat and tares, you assume the wheat are the righteous, and the chaff/tares are the unrighteous. I came to realize that the wheat and the chaff are parts of the SAME seed, only separated when threshed. The wheat/tare contrast is less marked, but you will find the key in First Corinthians 3, where works, NOT PERSONS are burned.
Your understanding is flawed again here. "Tares" are weeds and they are NOT part of the wheat. Once again, you choose to look the other way even when the verses explain to you that they are "the children of the devil" as shown in Matthew 13. The disciples even asked Jesus to explain it to them so they would understand, and yet you still don't get the explanation.
Chapter LXV
1 After this he showed me the angels of punishment, who were prepared to come, and to open all the mighty waters(1) under the earth:
2 That they may be for judgment, and for the destruction of all those who remain and dwell upon the earth.
3 And the Lord of spirits commanded the angels who went forth, not to take up the men and preserve them.
4 For those angels presided over all the mighty waters. Then I went out from the presence of Enoch.
(1)the power of water p.80
Chapter LXVI
1 In those days the word of God came to me(2), and said, Noah, behold, thy lot(3) has ascended up to me, a lot void of crime(4), a lot beloved(5) and upright.
2 Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it.
3 The seed of life shall arise from it(6), and a change shall take place(7), that the dry land shall not be left empty. I will establish your seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with you on the surface of the earth. It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord.
(2)was with me (3)portion (4)fault (5)of love (6)be (7)shall enter p. 80
4 And they shall confine those angels who disclosed impiety. In that burning valley [it is, that they shall be confined], which at first my great-grandfather Enoch showed me in the west, where there were mountains of gold and silver, of iron, of fluid metal, and of tin.
5 I beheld that valley in which there was great perturbation, and where the waters were troubled.
6 And when all this was effected, from the fluid mass of fire, and the perturbation which prevailed(1) in that place, there arose a strong smell of sulphur, which became mixed with the waters; and the valley of the angels, who had been guilty of seduction, burned underneath its soil.
7 Through that valley also rivers of fire were flowing(2), to which those angels shall be condemned, who seduced the inhabitants of the earth.
8 And in those days shall these waters be to kings, to princes, to the exalted, and to the inhabitants of the earth, for the healing of the soul and body, and for the judgment of the spirit.
9 Their spirits shall be full of revelry, (3) that they may be judged in their bodies; because they have denied the Lord of spirits, and [although] they perceive their condemnation day by day, they believe not in his name.
(1)troubled them (2)went (3)sport p.81
10 And as the inflammation of their bodies shall be great, so shall their spirits undergo a change for ever.
11 For no word which is uttered before the Lord of spirits shall be in vain.
12 Judgment has come upon them, because they trusted in their carnal revelry (1), and denied the Lord of spirits.
13 In those days shall the waters of that valley(2) be changed; for when the angels shall be judged, then shall the heat of those springs of water experience an alteration.
14 And when the angels shall ascend, the water of the springs shall [again] undergo a change, and be frozen. Then I heard holy Michael answering and saying, This judgment, with which the angels shall be judged, shall bear testimony against the kings, the princes, and those who possess the earth.
15 For these waters of judgment shall be for their healing, and for the death of their bodies. But they shall not perceive and believe that the waters will be changed, and become a fire, which shall blaze for ever.
(1)sport of their bodies (2)its waters p.82
Chapter LXVII
1 After this he gave me the characteristical marks(1) of all the secret things in the book of my great-grandfather Enoch, and in the parables which had been given to him; inserting them for me among the words of the book of parables.
2 At that that time holy Michael answered and said to Raphael, The power of the spirit hurries me away, and impels me on(2). The severity of the judgment, of the secret judgment of the angels, who is capable [of beholding]–the endurance of that severe judgment which has taken place and been made permanent–without being melted at the site of it?(3) Again holy Michael answered and said to holy Raphael, Who is there whose heart is not softened by it, and whose reins are not troubled at this thing?
3 Judgment has gone forth against them by those who have thus dragged them away; and that was, when they stood in the presence of the Lord of spirits.
4 In like manner also holy Rakael said to Raphael, They shall not be before the eye of the Lord; since the Lord of spirits has been offended with them; for like Lords have they
conducted themselves. Therefore will he bring upon them a secret judgment for ever and ever.
5 For neither shall angel nor man receive a portion of it; but they alone shall receive their own judgment for ever end ever
(1)the signs (2)irritates or excites them (3)and not be melted in the presence of it p.83-84
Pages 80-84, Laurance, Richard "Chapters 65-67" The Book Of Enoch (Wizards Bookshelf,1995)